90% aspies have normal intelligence despite what they think
17 Mar 2014, 4:08 pm
You've made a lot of assumptions there.
I made very few assumptions beyond the original post and the well established facts i think. I was trying to simply apply logic.
I stated that i was assuming cases where AS is 'correctly diagnosed'. Disregarding the fact that the diagnosis has now been retired, following the letter of the diagnostic literature, fully correct diagnoses does stipulate in no uncertain terms that a below average intelligence disqualifies diagnosis. I make no argument whatsoever about the merit of that clause. But, before DSM V, this was a key factor in differentiating AS from autism.
Can you say what other assumptions you think i have made as I was deliberately precise about dealing only with the facts and where they lead?
Cheers.
TLDR: Such as?
Your largest assumption is that tested IQ spread in people diagnosed with AS is the same as it is in the general population. Existing studies contradict this assumption.
Also, 'average' not equals to 'at least 100 on the scale'. 'Average' is 100 +- one standard deviation, which is 15. This theoretically includes approx. 68% of the population. When lower average and upper average ranges are included in the definition (as in most clinical approach), two standard deviations define the upper and lower limits (+-30), and it would include approx. 95.5% of the population.
17 Mar 2014, 4:37 pm
It's interesting that according to this study PSI is not correlated with ADHD symptomatology, but is correlated with ASD symptomatology.
Autistic children would score better on tasks not requiring good motor-ability, if I understand it well. When enough time is given, autistics can do much better at tasks. Also, when communication and comprehension demand is relatively low, a better performance can be expected relative to the full scale IQ scores.
17 Mar 2014, 4:43 pm
well some people take an online I.Q test and assume its correct.
i have a below average I.Q in some areas and average I.Q in other areas. overall, id say im average
_________________
Obsessing over Sonic the Hedgehog since 2009
Diagnosed with Aspergers' syndrome in 2012.
Diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder Level 1 severity without intellectual disability and without language impairment in 2015.
DA: http://mephilesdark123.deviantart.com
17 Mar 2014, 4:45 pm
You've made a lot of assumptions there.
I made very few assumptions beyond the original post and the well established facts i think. I was trying to simply apply logic.
I stated that i was assuming cases where AS is 'correctly diagnosed'. Disregarding the fact that the diagnosis has now been retired, following the letter of the diagnostic literature, fully correct diagnoses does stipulate in no uncertain terms that a below average intelligence disqualifies diagnosis. I make no argument whatsoever about the merit of that clause. But, before DSM V, this was a key factor in differentiating AS from autism.
Can you say what other assumptions you think i have made as I was deliberately precise about dealing only with the facts and where they lead?
Cheers.
TLDR: Such as?
Your largest assumption is that tested IQ spread in people diagnosed with AS is the same as it is in the general population. Existing studies contradict this assumption.
I didn't assume that at all. IQ was not mentioned, let alone comparative IQ spreads. I was talking generally about intelligence.
_________________
AQ46, EQ9, FQ20, SQ50
RAADS-R: 181 (Language: 9, Social: 97, Sensory/Motor: 37, Interests: 36)
Aspie Quiz: AS129, NT80
Alexithymia: 137
Verdandi
Veteran
Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 55
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
17 Mar 2014, 5:12 pm
No, people who are not competent to make claims about something but believe they are in fact knowledgeable enough to do so is the Dunning-Kruger effect.
The material I read about the attractiveness thing indicated that there is a certain level of healthy "optimism" (I am not sure this is the right word) that people apply as a factor in motivation and other matters - that it's an adaptive trait. Dunning-Kruger isn't adaptive, and I wouldn't call it a "theory of mind" issue. It is someone who is so unskilled at something that they are unable to realize that they are not qualified to do the things they think they can do.
The post I responded to was actually in reference to matters covered by Dunning-Kruger, so I am not sure why you're dragging this out.
Verdandi
Veteran
Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 55
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
17 Mar 2014, 5:13 pm
Yes, thank you. That.
Verdandi
Veteran
Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 55
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
17 Mar 2014, 5:22 pm
IQ is the only measure available.
If IQ tests are not reliable for autistic people (I lean toward this) then the idea that Aspies cannot have intellectual disability becomes unfalsifiable - ID is identified in significant part by IQ score, and one test used to identify autism is the Vineland adaptive behavior scales (VABS) that produces a number that is comparable to IQ but measures one's abilities in self-care, adaptive behaviors, etc. Autistic people tend to score in ranges similar to ID people on that test, but unlike NTs, their IQ may be tested as higher than their VABS score.
Anyway, your assumption is that by cutting out those who can be diagnosed with ID means that Aspie intelligence will average slightly higher than NT intelligence hasn't been demonstrated in research. Aspie intelligence has been measured as averaging slightly lower despite the exclusion of people with ID from the diagnosis.
17 Mar 2014, 6:05 pm
So many good replies already to this thread! Anyhow, just to quickly add: there are a few kinds of standard IQ tests and such tests are designed for 'standard' people. By definition, Aspies do deviate some from standard. I do not know which test this given study has used, but that alone could be a real methodological issue.
An example of a test most amenable to Aspies might be the RAVEN test, which is comprised of logic and shape/patterns manipulation! If the RAVEN had been used, then the results of this study might be really different. Overall, a real downfall of IQ tests is trying to pin a score on such a dynamic property as intelligence.
_________________
The ones who say “You can’t” and “You won’t” are probably the ones scared that you will. - Unknown
17 Mar 2014, 7:41 pm
It's interesting that according to this study PSI is not correlated with ADHD symptomatology, but is correlated with ASD symptomatology.
Autistic children would score better on tasks not requiring good motor-ability, if I understand it well. When enough time is given, autistics can do much better at tasks. Also, when communication and comprehension demand is relatively low, a better performance can be expected relative to the full scale IQ scores.
Hi Ojani its nice to see you again. Purely for the sake of my curiosity, can you elaborate on what you found interesting about the lack of correlation between PSI scores and ADHD?
I would also like to add that the inspection time task mentioned in the study, where the ASD group scored on par with the neural typical group 25 FSIQ points (25 points is a HUGE difference ) above them, is a task where an image of parallel lines of unequal length is flashed for as little as 16 ms in the task involves determining which is longest or shortest. I have taken the inspection test and hit the ceiling while my coding score (PSI subtest) on the WAIS test was more than one standard deviation below the norm. According to this and other studies these results are fairly typical in ASD. My guess is that the ASD brain takes in more data than what is considered normal, and thus requires more time to process it. I guess another way of saying it would be that the ASD brain filters data differently than the neural typical brain. Of course, this would only be one factor in low PSI scores and motor demand also makes perfect sense. I don't think any one factor explains our challenges; it's not apples and oranges, it's a fruit basket. Whether there are studies on this particular topic, I don't know. I do know that you are quite well read, so if you have any information or insight on this I would appreciate your input. The following is a link just to show you an example of what I was talking about in terms of inspection time task.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspection_time
17 Mar 2014, 8:30 pm
An example of a test most amenable to Aspies might be the RAVEN test, which is comprised of logic and shape/patterns manipulation! If the RAVEN had been used, then the results of this study might be really different. Overall, a real downfall of IQ tests is trying to pin a score on such a dynamic property as intelligence.
On the topic of Raven progressive matrices there is a really interesting study that I've read. I posted this in the past on WP, but I will post again to save time. Just one note, when I posted this in the past, many people mistook the wording to mean that the ASD group had an advantage in overall score compared to the non-ASD group. What the wording really means is that there is a discrepancy in scores between RPM and WAIS for the ASD group while there is no significant discrepancy between the two tests for the non-ASD group. I will post the discussion portion of the study, but I would recommend that anyone interested in this read the entire article. Again, this another example that illustrates what I have been posting about IQ tests. Our thinking is atypical. Therefore, it cannot be measured in a typical way. To say that 90% of ASPIs have normal intelligence is just not true.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0025372
We have proposed that autistics' cognitive processes function in an atypically independent way, leading to “parallel, non-strategic integration of patterns across multiple levels and scales” [36] and to versatility in cognitive processing [26]. Such “independent thinking” suggests ways in which apparently specific or isolated abilities can co-exist with atypical but flexible, creative, and complex achievements. Across a wide range of tasks, including or perhaps especially in complex tasks, autistics do not experience to the same extent the typical loss or distortion of information that characterizes non-autistics' mandatory hierarchies of processing [24]. Therefore, autistics can maintain more veridical representations (e.g. representations closer to the actual information present in the environment) when performing high level, complex tasks. The current results suggest that such a mechanism is also present in Asperger syndrome and therefore represents a commonality across the autistic spectrum. Given the opportunity, different subgroups of autistics may advantageously apply more independent thinking to different available aspects of information: verbal information, by persons whose specific diagnosis is Asperger's, and perceptual information, by persons whose specific diagnosis is autism.
One could alternatively suggest that the construct measured by RPM is relative and thus would reflect processes other than intelligence in autistic spectrum individuals. However, a very high item difficulty correlation is observed between autistic individuals and typical controls, as well as between Asperger individuals and typical controls. As previously noted [20], these high correlations indicate that RPM is measuring the same construct in autistics and non-autistics, a finding now extended to Asperger syndrome. Therefore, dismissing these RPM findings as not reflecting genuine human intelligence in autistic and Asperger individuals would have the same effect for non-autistic individuals. The discrepancies here revealed between alternative measures of intelligence in a subgroup of individuals underline the ambiguous non-monolithic definition of intelligence. Undoubtedly, autistics' intelligence is atypical and may not be as easily assessed and revealed with standard instruments. But given the essential and unique role that RPM has long held in defining general and fluid intelligence (e.g., [37]), we again suggest that both the level and nature of autistic intelligence have been underestimated. Thus, while there has been a long tradition of pursuing speculated autistic deficits, it is important to consider the possibility of strength-based mechanisms as underlying autistics' atypical but genuine intelligence.
17 Mar 2014, 8:34 pm
IQ is the only measure available.
If IQ tests are not reliable for autistic people (I lean toward this) then the idea that Aspies cannot have intellectual disability becomes unfalsifiable - ID is identified in significant part by IQ score, and one test used to identify autism is the Vineland adaptive behavior scales (VABS) that produces a number that is comparable to IQ but measures one's abilities in self-care, adaptive behaviors, etc. Autistic people tend to score in ranges similar to ID people on that test, but unlike NTs, their IQ may be tested as higher than their VABS score.
Anyway, your assumption is that by cutting out those who can be diagnosed with ID means that Aspie intelligence will average slightly higher than NT intelligence hasn't been demonstrated in research. Aspie intelligence has been measured as averaging slightly lower despite the exclusion of people with ID from the diagnosis.
Right, i think i see what you're getting at now - it took me a while which is sorta ironic given what we are talking about, lol.
Just to be clear though, my argument removed those with below average intelligence rather than just those with a diagnosed ID. Presumably there are many, many people with below average intelligence (ie. autism rather that AS diagnosis) but who fall short of diagnosable ID. That is more what i was getting at.
PS. You might well be right about the inapplicability of IQ to ASD - That is probably a whole thread in itself!
PPS. I imagine it's probably discussions such as this which lead to the umbrella ASD diagnosis replacing autism, AS etc.
_________________
AQ46, EQ9, FQ20, SQ50
RAADS-R: 181 (Language: 9, Social: 97, Sensory/Motor: 37, Interests: 36)
Aspie Quiz: AS129, NT80
Alexithymia: 137
18 Mar 2014, 1:50 am
Intelligence can be way too overrated. It isn't what makes a truly great person, or a happy person. Sure, I could write down equations off the top of my head for general relativity, special relativity, thermodynamics, explain what neutrinos are and how we can only detect them when they collide with the nucleus of an atom, beat most people I've met at chess, join Mensa or score high enough on IQ tests for people to doubt my scores... But what does that do for me? Does it demonstrate any character, does it make people like me, does it even necessarily mean that I'll accomplish something? Nope. Actually, it can make people a whole lot more arrogant and lonely than they have to be. And when they have an easier time learning things in school they can even end up getting grades they shouldn't, underachieving and not developing a healthy work ethic.
From what I've observed it seems that aspies do normally turn out more intelligent. There seems to be some issue here over how to define intelligence but IMO it's much more important to look at learned/"earned" intelligence than raw cognitive ability. And it's pretty easy to observe that because aspies tend to be obsessive they do accumulate more knowledge. I don't think that should be downplayed or ignored, they really do tend to learn and retain more.
But there are many different types of intelligence and in some of the eight areas of intelligence we often find ourselves lacking. Yeah, I could explain all kinds of abstract concepts to someone from a young age but I sure couldn't find and keep good friends, make good life choices, learn necessary skills to lead a full and happy life. It wasn't much consolation to me looking back at my life in my thirties, that I could remember or puzzle out this or that. My other forms of intelligence were stunted, especially my emotional intelligence. It's very frustrating to feel like you know pretty much anything aside from what you really want, and what you are going to do with your life.
IMO, there's usually nothing normal about an aspie's intelligence. However, that can be good and bad, and they often excel and fall far behind at the same time.
_________________
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib
18 Mar 2014, 11:29 am
I don't understand much of brain or IQ tests, but from what I have been reading here and in the links you provided aspies (and auties) score significantly better than nt's at visual reasoning and inspection test.
but what about the aspies that on the opposite, (and some examples are in this topic), they show a great gap between their higher verbal scores and lower visual scores? And does it have anything to do with nvld? If I took the wais test I have no doubt my verbal subtest would be higher. I know we are all different but what is up with the autistic brain? Or am I missing something, in this case, can someone explain it to me?
btbnnyr
Veteran
Joined: 18 May 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,359
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago
18 Mar 2014, 11:44 am
More important than raw cognitive ability is probably how to use cognitive ability. Scoring high on IQ subtests is probably less important for functioning than applying whatever subserves those subscores to daily life, school, work, etc. I don't know of any good educational programs for teaching autistic children how to make these applications based on their cognitive abilities. This is something that needs to be developed, but I don't know if NTs recognize this as something that needs to be developed and would be useful.
Someone with a lot of IQ subtest scatter, they can have verry merry berry high cognitive ability in certain areas, but most tasks in real world require combinations of different abilities in different areas, so if they don't know what to do about that, then they won't use their intelligence as effectively as they could. For eggsample, I have gap between my non-verbal and verbal abilities, and my receptive language is particularly bad relative to my other areas and the people around me, and I have found that it is mostly useless to develop this receptive language into something substantially improved, but more useful to avoid learning through language, eggspecially listening to others talk, but even reading is not that useful for me, but instead, skimming for keywords and building a mental model of the material is easier, since that makes big use of non-verbal strengths and bypasses verbal weaknesses.
_________________
Drain and plane and grain and blain your brain, and then again,
Propane and butane out of the gas main, your blain shall sustain!
18 Mar 2014, 11:53 am
Someone with a lot of IQ subtest scatter, they can have verry merry berry high cognitive ability in certain areas, but most tasks in real world require combinations of different abilities in different areas, so if they don't know what to do about that, then they won't use their intelligence as effectively as they could. For eggsample, I have gap between my non-verbal and verbal abilities, and my receptive language is particularly bad relative to my other areas and the people around me, and I have found that it is mostly useless to develop this receptive language into something substantially improved, but more useful to avoid learning through language, eggspecially listening to others talk, but even reading is not that useful for me, but instead, skimming for keywords and building a mental model of the material is easier, since that makes big use of non-verbal strengths and bypasses verbal weaknesses.
Eggsactly
18 Mar 2014, 11:59 am
Aspies prove that intelligence isn't as important a survival tool as good social skills. How? Most adult aspies live in poverty, most never marry, and most struggle with depression, lonelyness, and hopelessness.
No matter how stupid you are, you have a better chance at life than us aspies.
| Similar Topics | |
|---|---|
|
Antidepressants and intelligence
in Bipolar, Tourettes, Schizophrenia, and other Psychological Conditions |
31 May 2025, 3:32 pm |
| Not Autistic Not ADHD But Not Normal |
28 Apr 2025, 10:38 am |
| Am I becoming obsessed with trying to be "normal"? |
14 May 2025, 10:51 am |
