Male vs female Asperger

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I spent several years trying my best to look like Kurt Cobain: I thought that if I looked like the most famous rockstar I was aware of people would think I was cool and interesting and like me, and then everything would be better.
Didn’t work!

Same went for my attempt to look like a 1950s businessman in my twenties: thought I’d be taken seriously and get a good job right away.

Last edited by Karamazov on 02 May 2020, 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thanks for explaining! I hear you! You're lucky that despite the rough times you had someone to point out your conflicting signals. I think I've mentioned a million times before that I looked, acted, and carried myself like Allison from the Breakfast Club (the mute, depressed girl). But I dressed like Claire (Molly Ringwald, the prep who looked rich). Those mixed signals must have really confused people. I was considered an outlier by both groups because my clothes and my actions weren't integrated. I didn't actually know that at the time, but now when I look back I realise what an enigma I must have been.

I never learned the "female" things when I was supposed to. There was no one to show me. I didn't know how to use makeup or do my hair. I remember I was in my 30s before I heard that girls pluck their eyebrows. I'd never heard of that. I didn't know how how to flirt or how to be intimate with boys, even. I knew the technical steps but I had no idea when I was supposed to do those things. At 13 I assumed all the girls were "doing it" because I had no way to find out without asking them and looking stupid. A guy tried to .... pressure me, and I had no idea if I was supposed to say yes or no because I didn't know what the other girls did. (Sidenote: thank goodness the parents came home and ended that dilemma).

I had no role models except that I would try to read teen magazines and imagine those popular lifestyles. I wanted to be Valerie Bertinelli. I had no idea how to get that type of look / lifestyle, or whom to ask for help. It didn't occur to me that even the NT girls were learning new skills as they went along. I just assumed I was defective, had no chance of catching up, and that I'd be doomed to failure either way.

It's easier now that I'm an adult and I understand autism. I have compassion for my younger self and I'm proud to be an individual who doesn't follow the pack. I can't say it's been easy, though.

((( Hugs to everyone for your stories ))) and sorry QFT if we derailed. I hope this was topical enough!

Oh!
I get the “mixed signals” now!

I must have confused a lot of people by walking around looking like a grunge rocker and talking with a BBC announcer voice!

((Allison))

Now, picture Allison acting this way but dressed like Claire ....

An artist I knew got a job as a taxi driver. He thought he should drive fast, like a real taxi driver. He crashed on his first shift.

Well, how was I supposed to know that this is how I would, personally, make you feel? In order to know that, I would have to know that you didn't mask, and I would also have to know that you feel self conscious about comparing yourself to other women. I didn't know either one of these. For all I know, it could have been the opposite. A lot of people take pride when they hear something positive about the group of people they belong to and they feel bad when they hear something negative about the group of people they belong to.

So, lets say I say something positive about a certain group. Will the member of that group feel good that I like the group they belong to -- or will they feel bad because I just implied that they aren't keeping up with what the rest of their group is doing? In your case the latter took place. But how was I supposed to know it?

I guess that is one of the big ways that Asperger affects me: I don't know the background of someone I interact with or how various things I say might affect that specific person, yet I am being held accountable for that.

I thought that little changes might miraculously change my personality. I bought penny loafers (with the pennies) because I really liked them, but somehow in the back of my mind I thought I might become "normal" by wearing them like the other girls. I enjoyed the shoes but darn ... I was still me. Then I thought if I got a basketball I might become normal, and outgoing. I got a basketball for my tenth birthday thinking it would solve all my differences. I didn't realise "Hmmm .... I don't have a basketball net at home, or anywhere to practise ... and I'm to still too shy to join the others". So I sat crying with my useless basketball on my birthday, and no one knew why. When I was older I thought having a black SUV would make me feel cool and outdoorsy, and stop my agarophobia like a magic wand. LOL. Not.

I genuinely wanted the penny loafers, the basketball, and the black SUV so I don't think that was a form of masking, but I assumed each one would make me feel "normal" or change my self-perception. Clearly they never did, because autism runs so much deeper than one-step choices.

I had no idea all my quirks were even connected under one diagnosis, and I was especially clueless about it being ASD.

QFT: I just saw your last post. I'm not faulting you for not knowing. Of course you wouldn't know. Most other women wouldn't even understand me. You didn't do or say anything wrong. I just thought it was a good opportunity for members to share their experiences with "masking", because it's a word we hear about so often in discussions about life on the spectrum. Please don't think that I'm holding you accountable, or that anyone else is for that matter. We're all just sharing our memories of what it was like to grow up autistic.

Also I'm not sure if this is relevant to my lack of "female masking", but I am Level 2 Autistic and not "Aspergers" or High Functioning. I don't know if that makes a difference. Maybe women diagnosed HFA or Aspergers are better at masking, or maybe it's dependent on the person regardless of their gender. I really don't know.

As far as asking other members to share their experiences, I thought it was a good thing. I noticed you mentioned a couple of times you were concerned it was derailing the thread. But actually I think it is very much ON topic. I asked a question -- and giving the examples is one of the best ways of answering it.

The reason I thought you held me personally accountable is because of the thing I quoted you saying in my previous reply. You said



Well, this sounds like holding me accountable, does it not?



Hearing that you are Level 2 brings up another question I had for a really long time (this time its not gender specific). So, back in 1997, when I was evaluated by Brina Siegel, she said I am very mild even compared to other aspies (but yes she affirmed that I have Asperger, she just said that it was mild). But then, starting from 1999, when I was interacting with some people with Asperger online, I found that I seem to have a lot more problems than they do. So it felt like I am severe and I couldn't understand why Brina Siegel didn't see it. I finally found some possible ways of answering this question. Someone on one of the other message boards I been going to told me that Brina Siegel has an old school view of Asperger so she won't diagnose anyone at all unless their Asperger is severe -- and is very likely to un-diagnose whoever goes to her. On top of that, it was 1997, and the rate of diagnoses went up over the years. So *even if* I were mild compared to the people who were diagnosed in 1997 (also questionable for aforestated reasons), that would not imply that I am mild compared to people diagnosed nowdays. And, indeed, when I talked to other specialists more recently, nobody told me I was mild compared to other aspies (although they all agree that Asperger is what I have -- which by default still means I am mild compared to classical autistics).

However, now that you said you are Level 2, I have this question all over again Nobody who talked to me ever said I was level 2, they all agree I am level 1. So how come -- despite being Level 2 -- you are better adapted than I am (as evident from the way you were able to answer my social questions on some of the other threads within past year)? And, by the way, the same question applies to Kraftie. He also says that, as a kid, he was considered severely autistic -- yet he is able to answer my questions too. I guess the only thing I can think of is maybe I was just overly-sheltered, being the only child with my parents being the only children, and them being Jewish parents to top it off? I know that blaming autism on the parents sounds like the 60-s and the idea was rejected long time ago. But I have no idea what else to think.

^
But you're not really blaming autism on them. On the other hand, parenting can play a major role in development - some people stunt their kids' emotional and social development by not teaching them the necessary skills and encouraging them to stay in "learned helplessness" limbo - not saying yours did, just something I noticed with some people here.

What I'm trying to say is that the development issues related to autism can be made more severe by inadequate parenting or a sheltered life that deprives you of "adult" experiences.

(sorry for butting in, Isabella)

I'll answer your questions one at a time so I can think them through and not write a wall of text.

Thanks for letting me know I didn't derail.

When I said I felt invalidated I didn't mean I was invalidated by YOU. I meant that in general, when I hear about female masking, I feel invalidated. It's like I failed at being an autistic female.

Apparently, according to the media, I was supposed to have a magical, female, masking superpower which made me sociable ... but I didn't even know about this until recently. It makes me feel shortchanged, like I missed out on a developmental skill that other autistic girls had, but there's nothing I can do about it now.

This was not directed at you. I used the word "invalidated" because Karamazov used the word and it seemed appropriate to how I feel. It's OK that you thought or assumed autistic females are good at masking. Lots of people think that, and to an extent it's possibly true. I just wanted to present the flip-side. Not all girls and women have known how to mask and some have tried but failed miserably. In my case, I didn't even know it was an option, and there was no one to be my role model or help me learn. My mother told me I was useless, one grandmother died young, and the other lived in America. I had no sisters, no internet, and no friends. The subtleties of being female were so nuanced, I could never master it all on my own and I had no intuition to guess.

Likewise, some boys and men can mask very well. They might even mask more often or more successfully than their female counterparts, but few people acknowledge their experience. That's why I brought it up.

I'm big on breaking down misconceptions about all people, whether they are neurotypical or neurodiverse. I don't like to differentiate or categorise anyone's behaviour according to their gender.

Again, you didn't do or say anything wrong but it's just something I wanted to discuss.

YES. I don't want to play the blame game and say it was my mother's fault, but it's true that I didn't have a support system which other children might have. I didn't have any female role models. I wouldn't say that I have a "male brain" (I hate that theory too) .... but I didn't have anyone show me the ropes of acting like other girls.

QFT -- I'll answer your other questions in a moment. Wow. I'm on a roll today!

If your functioning level concerns you, or if you think your assessment should be updated, can you be retested?

Your first testing in 1997 likely used the DSM-IV criteria. To be honest I'm not even sure what the diagnostic criteria were for Aspergers Syndrome in 1997, but autism testing has changed a lot since then. Aspergers isn't even an official diagnosis or label anymore, in most countries. People are assessed on the autism spectrum.

Do you have a copy of your diagnostic report with all your scores for the various tasks? That might be a good starting point. Take that to your doctor, and point out you would like a new assessment using the DSM5 (I think you are American). It's only fair and reasonable that you should have an updated test in case you need any accommodations in your studies or when you are working. You might even qualify for social assistance (OT therapy, etc) where you live.



I don't know what you mean by "better adapted" ? I'm quite well read about autism in the past two years so I'm able to discuss and understand autism quite easily, but I'm not sure if that's what you mean. What is better adapted about me than you? I'm not necessarily disagreeing, I just don't know what you're referring to. It seems you are quite successful. I believe you said you are completing doctoral studies in Physics, and you are a TA. That's quite an accomplishment on your part.




I'm not sure what your parents' Judaism would have to do with it. I wasn't an only child. I have an older brother who is likely autistic as well, but he doesn't want to be tested. My father and his side of the family were (likely / most certainly) autistic. My grandfather was so reclusive that he abandoned the family for eight years, went into hiding, and then killed himself on my 16th birthday. My mother's side is huge and extroverted but they lived far away. I seldom saw them, but I was always compared unfavourably to my female, NT cousins -- especially when my family lived near them for two years.

Quite a few people on my mother's side are alcoholic or neurodiverse in their own way (OCD in particular). I don't think my family setting made me "better adapted" in any way. If anything I suffered with extreme insecurity and anxiety because I spent all my time alone, hiding in my bedroom and feeling I wasn't good enough.

In primary school I was teased and bullied for being spaced out. I had no masking skills. No one offered me any type of support apart from speech therapy, even though all my school reports say I was suffering. My own family mocked me for my stims but did nothing to investigate them. In secondary I hid in the library for every lunch period and study hall (see Breakfast Club ), and I was so scared I wouldn't go to class sometimes. I failed some classes because I was too shy to leave the library.

Uni wasn't any different socially. I was often bullied and harassed. I was sexually assaulted and mocked. I hid in more libraries and somehow managed to get through, because I was studying my special interest. (Similar to you).

I guess our paths diverge after Uni. I didn't want to move back home to my parents so I started a career and moved out. Yes I was young and it was bold, but I didn't know any better. No one said "You're autistic", so I assumed that everyone felt equally terrified living on their own. I just pushed forward. I can't say if I was better adapted than you, or not. I did what I had to do, not knowing there was an alternative. My special interest was enough to pay the bills, so I kept my house despite having really poor executive function and no idea how to repair anything that broke.

I dated three men over the course of 20 years. All three turned out to be gay. I wasn't able to read any of them. I didn't know any better, and I believed what they said. Two used me, to hide the fact they were gay from their families. One stole a lot of money and was violent. None of these were stellar relationships although I've remained friends with one. Again, I had no frame of reference for what was normal. I wasted 20 years of my life with those men.

I've only known my current boyfriend since December. Almost half of our relationship has been during lockdown so I haven't been able to see him for 50% of our time as a couple.

Oh, I forgot to mention I also suffered a stroke and I have Complex Trauma from other parts of my life involving abuse, violence and extortion. I haven't been able to work for years, because of my trauma and because of (two) nervous breakdowns.

I can't say that any of this makes me particularly "well adapted" to anything, except basic survival.

Sorry for the rant, but a lot of people assume that because I can write well I must be "well adapted". I'm not. I'm an English scholar and I know how to write, but in real life I'm essentially mute, and I suffer tremendously from CPTSD, anxiety, depression, agoraphobia, and alexithymia.




I wish I had better parenting too. I'm sure it would have helped us both in some way.

Agrees , based on first hand experience .

I've done masking since... I don't know, seventh grade? Back then I just called it pretending though, and did it to not get bullied. I was bullied in grades 1-6, and switched schools when starting 7th. One could say that I was good at masking since I only got bullied occassionally and most of the times weren't bad, but another explanation is that the new school just had nicer people... or people who were more accepting of differences in general. Yah, probably the later.

Personally I don't consider myself good at masking, especially since while I might be able to keep my mouth shut, my face is likely to say what was left unsaid. Plus, I'm not always good at telling in what situations it would be a good idea to mask in.

Has anyone been in a group without wanting to be like a class and everything is ok till someone puts you down,I guess with sarcasm?

Yes. Many times.

~My family

~A baby shower

~My summer jobs

I could probably list 50 examples