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Ganondox
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07 Mar 2012, 7:19 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Jtuk wrote:
Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
Ok, I looked into PDA a bit and found nothing on imagination, only that, as you said, it's like autism, only with more defiance and mood swings and less social difficulties. Maybe those with AS are often as imaginative as those with PDA, but the differences in social problems make it easier for those with PDA to express them. I dunno.
The second last paragraph here mentions imagination. This website is the best resource I've been able to find on PDA.
http://www.pdacontact.org.uk/noframes/p ... sons.shtml


I told my shrink about my imagination and my pretend play as a child. He said that lacking imagination is not a criteria for AS. Attwood claims people with AS can be highly imaginitive, as does some research done on women and girls.

Oh, and I definately do not fit the description of PDA.
Yes, I really think this imagination thing is a bit of a red herring, when it comes to diagnosing AS. Some docs (and the psych we saw) think it's relevant, but wiser docs think not. This outdated notion may cause my daughter to get a diagnosis of PDD-NOS. However, she fits the description of PDA better than AS (even if we take imagination out of the picture altogether).


It is possible to pretend without imagination. Re-enacting what you've seen, heard or read isn't very imaginative. This is the difference in pretend play, expect the aspie to remind the other child of their lines if they deviate from the script..

A good doc would recognise its very hard for a parent to tell the difference :)

Jason

Jason


That still has little to do with me.


1. Many people here said they were being imaginative in their head and not engaging in social pretend play at all, which is the opposite of what this suggests.
2. I'm pretty sure the people who did say they participated in pretend play weren't implying this.


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07 Mar 2012, 7:48 pm

Funny, when I was young I use to believe I had no imagination at all..Then in my early 20's people told me I showed lots of imagination...
I guess it all depends who's world I am living in...



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07 Mar 2012, 9:39 pm

The problem here is a misunderstanding of the concept of "imagination", which, by the way, isn't terribly difficult to define.

A good place to start, as often is the case, is wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagination

Imagination, also called the faculty of imagining, is the ability of forming images and sensations when they are not perceived through sight, hearing, or other senses.

Simple, isn't it?

Many people seem to mix up the concept of "imagination" with "creativity": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity

Creativity refers to the phenomenon whereby a person creates something new (a product, a solution, a work of art, a novel, a joke, etc.) that has some kind of value.

...and "originality": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Originality

Originality is the aspect of created or invented works by as being new or novel, and thus can be distinguished from reproductions, clones, forgeries, or derivative works. An original work is one not received from others nor one copied based on the work of others. It is a work created with a unique style and substance. The term "originality" is often applied as a compliment to the creativity of artists, writers, and thinkers.

The first problem is that you can be both creative and original without having an imagination. I have no imagination whatsoever--meaning, I cannot produce mental images, sounds, smells, or sensations. Period. I have no mind's eye, or ear, or tongue, etc. whatsoever.

However, I have been regarded as highly creative and an original thinker at every stage of my life. I have written plays, short stories, poems, songs, etc. I have acted, sung, and played instruments for paying audiences. My sense of humor in particular is often recognized as being very creative and original. (Of course, people have always considered me to be imaginative--how would they know otherwise without crawling into my head, so to speak?)

Yet I couldn't imagine a black dot, or the smell of bacon, or the feel of satin, for even a nanosecond, even if a gun were put to my head.

Another problem is the extreme difficulty involved in comparing mental representations. It's not so hard for me, of course, being that I am unable to produce any, but for a high functioning autistic who has some (albeit impaired) imagination ability, how are they ever to understand their handicap? They might be quite creative as well, and that combined with SOME imagination ability might lead the individual to assume the whole "imagination deficit" in autistics line is pure bunk.

Finally, the deficits in imagination, like just about any other deficits in autism, become more pronounced as the severity of the general condition increases. There may be plenty of people out there with fair to even excellent imaginations who still qualify for Asperger's, but the ability to produce mental representations is certainly a "higher" mental function that goes out the door rather quickly as the severity of autism increases.



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07 Mar 2012, 10:38 pm

Poke wrote:
The problem here is a misunderstanding of the concept of "imagination", which, by the way, isn't terribly difficult to define.

A good place to start, as often is the case, is wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagination

Imagination, also called the faculty of imagining, is the ability of forming images and sensations when they are not perceived through sight, hearing, or other senses.

Simple, isn't it?

Many people seem to mix up the concept of "imagination" with "creativity": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity

Creativity refers to the phenomenon whereby a person creates something new (a product, a solution, a work of art, a novel, a joke, etc.) that has some kind of value.

...and "originality": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Originality

Originality is the aspect of created or invented works by as being new or novel, and thus can be distinguished from reproductions, clones, forgeries, or derivative works. An original work is one not received from others nor one copied based on the work of others. It is a work created with a unique style and substance. The term "originality" is often applied as a compliment to the creativity of artists, writers, and thinkers.

The first problem is that you can be both creative and original without having an imagination. I have no imagination whatsoever--meaning, I cannot produce mental images, sounds, smells, or sensations. Period. I have no mind's eye, or ear, or tongue, etc. whatsoever.

However, I have been regarded as highly creative and an original thinker at every stage of my life. I have written plays, short stories, poems, songs, etc. I have acted, sung, and played instruments for paying audiences. My sense of humor in particular is often recognized as being very creative and original. (Of course, people have always considered me to be imaginative--how would they know otherwise without crawling into my head, so to speak?)

Yet I couldn't imagine a black dot, or the smell of bacon, or the feel of satin, for even a nanosecond, even if a gun were put to my head.

Another problem is the extreme difficulty involved in comparing mental representations. It's not so hard for me, of course, being that I am unable to produce any, but for a high functioning autistic who has some (albeit impaired) imagination ability, how are they ever to understand their handicap? They might be quite creative as well, and that combined with SOME imagination ability might lead the individual to assume the whole "imagination deficit" in autistics line is pure bunk.

Finally, the deficits in imagination, like just about any other deficits in autism, become more pronounced as the severity of the general condition increases. There may be plenty of people out there with fair to even excellent imaginations who still qualify for Asperger's, but the ability to produce mental representations is certainly a "higher" mental function that goes out the door rather quickly as the severity of autism increases.


The problem with this is that it is literally impossible to measure this type of imagination, so for those who say they have imagination it is impossible to know whether or not it is impaired as it is impossible to compare it to someone else. You go tell Johnny and Sue to imagine a car and tell me which one is imagining the car "better". I know I don't lack an imagination, but I have no idea whether it is stronger or weaker than an average persons. Anyway, despite the fact that this is the proper definition of imagination this is not what is being referred to when it is said autistic people lack imagination.

To be honest, I used to think an overactive imagination (but not psychosis) was the psychological cause of autism. It still makes a lot more sense to me than a lot of the BS theories I see being pumped out.

One last thing: it is possible for someone with an imagination to imagine that they don't have an imagination, but it is nit possible for someone without an imagination to imagine that they have an imagination. Think about that for a moment.


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08 Mar 2012, 7:54 am

The only fitting description of a want in "imagination" could only be social imagination. That is the infamous "theory of mind " ability in assigning intentions to others' in real time interaction.



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08 Mar 2012, 8:46 am

Ganondox wrote:
The problem with this is that it is literally impossible to measure this type of imagination, so for those who say they have imagination it is impossible to know whether or not it is impaired as it is impossible to compare it to someone else. You go tell Johnny and Sue to imagine a car and tell me which one is imagining the car "better". I know I don't lack an imagination, but I have no idea whether it is stronger or weaker than an average persons.


Yes, as I said.

Quote:
Anyway, despite the fact that this is the proper definition of imagination this is not what is being referred to when it is said autistic people lack imagination.


Uh, it most certainly is.

This is the root of a great deal of misunderstanding. A typical example: http://autism.about.com/b/2008/09/09/do ... nation.htm

In fact, so far I haven't met a person with autism who has no imagination.

My own son, Tom, can make up stories and improvise music better than most typical kids his age. I know a girl with Asperger syndrome who wins poetry prizes. People with autism are extraordinary visual artists and dancers. Some are writers and poets.

NONE of these things are dependent on the ability to imagine.



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08 Mar 2012, 9:22 am

I hated story writing in English classes. First well is the bullying, anything I did was wrong and I would get called out on it. I hated school. Second is I couldn't just write a story about some topic the teacher made up. I would create the world. That makes it awfully slow and complicated to write stories. So yeah I think if I am imagining worlds and all their rules that requires good imagination, just it is extremely focused.



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08 Mar 2012, 9:55 am

Poke wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
TEfushe problem with this is that it is literally impossible to measure this type of imagination, so for those who say they have imagination it is impossible to know whether or not it is impaired as it is impossible to compare it to someone else. You go tell Johnny and Sue to imagine a car and tell me which one is imagining the car "better". I know I don't lack an imagination, but I have no idea whether it is stronger or weaker than an average persons.


Yes, as I said.

Quote:
Anyway, despite the fact that this is the proper definition of imagination this is not what is being referred to when it is said autistic people lack imagination.


Uh, it most certainly is.

This is the root of a great deal of misunderstanding. A typical example: http://autism.about.com/b/2008/09/09/do ... nation.htm

In fact, so far I haven't met a person with autism who has no imagination.

My own son, Tom, can make up stories and improvise music better than most typical kids his age. I know a girl with Asperger syndrome who wins poetry prizes. People with autism are extraordinary visual artists and dancers. Some are writers and poets.

NONE of these things are dependent on the ability to imagine.



Oh really? I for one knew exactly what imagination was before I started debating this and I say the main problem with aspies lacking imagination theory is simply that the data is out. All the early research on autism was based around observation, not from the actual aspies. Tell me, how is it possible to observe someone else imagining something? Really, the claim that peope with autism lack imagination doesn't make any sense to me. All the annedoctal evidence on the subject of the minds eye here on the forum suggests the opposite. Tell, if Temple Grandin lacked an imagination would she be able to simulate complex physical systems in her head, something most if not all NTs cannot do?


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08 Mar 2012, 10:58 am

Ganondox wrote:
Oh really? I for one knew exactly what imagination was before I started debating this and I say the main problem with aspies lacking imagination theory is simply that the data is out. All the early research on autism was based around observation, not from the actual aspies. Tell me, how is it possible to observe someone else imagining something? Really, the claim that peope with autism lack imagination doesn't make any sense to me. All the annedoctal evidence on the subject of the minds eye here on the forum suggests the opposite. Tell, if Temple Grandin lacked an imagination would she be able to simulate complex physical systems in her head, something most if not all NTs cannot do?


You're ignoring half of what I've written. I've provided a perfectly reasonable explanation for the above. You, like many other people on this forum, seem to have difficulty with the concepts of heterogeneity, severity, and autism in general.



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08 Mar 2012, 11:28 am

Poke wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
Oh really? I for one knew exactly what imagination was before I started debating this and I say the main problem with aspies lacking imagination theory is simply that the data is out. All the early research on autism was based around observation, not from the actual aspies. Tell me, how is it possible to observe someone else imagining something? Really, the claim that peope with autism lack imagination doesn't make any sense to me. All the annedoctal evidence on the subject of the minds eye here on the forum suggests the opposite. Tell, if Temple Grandin lacked an imagination would she be able to simulate complex physical systems in her head, something most if not all NTs cannot do?


You're ignoring half of what I've written. I've provided a perfectly reasonable explanation for the above. You, like many other people on this forum, seem to have difficulty with the concepts of heterogeneity, severity, and autism in general.


I did take into account what you said about imagination vary with severity, but I disagree. While I agree that there is varying degrees of imagination among Autists I don't believe imagination isn't any more impaired than it is among NTs. If anything I believe that those who appear more severly autistic actually tend to have stronger imaginations.


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08 Mar 2012, 6:00 pm

Ganondox wrote:
I've never done that (scripted pretend play) simply because I want to do stuff that I created and envisioned, not what someone else made up. If anything I say this isn't a sign of a lack of imagination, it's just stubbornness/rigiding and avoiding wrongness. Not changing a script that someone else created OR they created is avoiding wrongness because the script was meant to be performed a certain way.


We are all different (thankfully), don't interpret what I said too rigidly. Someone earlier in this thread said they were great at plots for murder mysteries or similar. This is a great example of how someone can appear to be creative or imaginative, but they are also following a set pattern.

My wife skimmed Through Tony Attwoods book and said our son can't have aspergers he's in to pretend play. - as it happens aspergers isn't jumping out at me - but his version of pretend play is putting on one of many costumes (he has quite a collection - uh oh :)) and pretending to be various roles (policeman, pirate, clown, spiderman and so on). Recreating various moves and things from TV and stories etc.

When his costumes off, he is no longer spiderman and will be himself again. When he is spiderman, he gets into play fights with random kids and teenagers twice his height. When he is himself he would seem quite shy.

So. Is he really being imaginative or is this just acting? To me, If he created his own characters that would be imaginative..

Jason



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08 Mar 2012, 6:27 pm

NTs have natural inclination towards thinking of imagination as imagining stuff as and about hooomans, thus giving thoughts to moving triangles. Pretend play in childhood, e.g. roleplaying like Jason's son, is ToM practice.



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08 Mar 2012, 8:13 pm

Jtuk wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
I've never done that (scripted pretend play) simply because I want to do stuff that I created and envisioned, not what someone else made up. If anything I say this isn't a sign of a lack of imagination, it's just stubbornness/rigiding and avoiding wrongness. Not changing a script that someone else created OR they created is avoiding wrongness because the script was meant to be performed a certain way.


We are all different (thankfully), don't interpret what I said too rigidly. Someone earlier in this thread said they were great at plots for murder mysteries or similar. This is a great example of how someone can appear to be creative or imaginative, but they are also following a set pattern.

My wife skimmed Through Tony Attwoods book and said our son can't have aspergers he's in to pretend play. - as it happens aspergers isn't jumping out at me - but his version of pretend play is putting on one of many costumes (he has quite a collection - uh oh :)) and pretending to be various roles (policeman, pirate, clown, spiderman and so on). Recreating various moves and things from TV and stories etc.

When his costumes off, he is no longer spiderman and will be himself again. When he is spiderman, he gets into play fights with random kids and teenagers twice his height. When he is himself he would seem quite shy.

So. Is he really being imaginative or is this just acting? To me, If he created his own characters that would be imaginative..

Jason


Well, I say he may be being imaginative, but he isn't being all that creative, but I still honestly think this type of thing is more just adherence to rules than a lack of creativity.


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08 Mar 2012, 8:13 pm

Ganondox wrote:
I did take into account what you said about imagination vary with severity, but I disagree. While I agree that there is varying degrees of imagination among Autists I don't believe imagination isn't any more impaired than it is among NTs.


Right, and you're basing this on "all the anecdotal evidence on the subject of the minds eye here on the forum", which means you're ignoring half of my initial post.

The first (and by far the most important) problem with the self-reporting of imaginative faculties is that half of the people that respond to threads like this don't understand what is meant by "imagination". Read the thread over again (if you're so inclined) and see for yourself.

The second (somewhat related) problem is that people who have some (albeit impaired) imaginative faculty and are also rather creative, artistic, etc. are likely to feel that they have a strong imagination even if they do grasp what that term is supposed to mean, because they have no way of knowing the degree to which a "normal" imagination (even one that belongs to a person who isn't as "creative" as they are) exceeds their own.

Of course, it's clear that there are many autistic individuals who do have strong imaginative faculties. This is because autism is a generality. Of course there will be exceptions. But once again, where do the exceptions end and the misunderstanding begin?

Quote:
If anything I believe that those who appear more severly autistic actually tend to have stronger imaginations.


Do you realize that there are very few severely autistic people who are able to communicate in any way that might convey a idea of what their mental life is like?

But we're getting away from the point here. The problem here--the big, main problem--is that people just won't accept or can't understand what is meant by the term "imagination", even after it's explained to them. They just can't shake the idea that little Billy writing some weird stories means he has a good imagination.



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08 Mar 2012, 8:16 pm

I think Ganondox said a mouthful. We are all different.

If your obsession is drawing you are creative. But we have to define creative? If you mean artistic not all of us. It is an individual thing. You have to look at Aspie traits (another post). We can find solutions which is huge.



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08 Mar 2012, 8:23 pm

Poke wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
I did take into account what you said about imagination vary with severity, but I disagree. While I agree that there is varying degrees of imagination among Autists I don't believe imagination isn't any more impaired than it is among NTs.


Right, and you're basing this on "all the anecdotal evidence on the subject of the minds eye here on the forum", which means you're ignoring half of my initial post.

The first (and by far the most important) problem with the self-reporting of imaginative faculties is that half of the people that respond to threads like this don't understand what is meant by "imagination". Read the thread over again (if you're so inclined) and see for yourself.

The second (somewhat related) problem is that people who have some (albeit impaired) imaginative faculty and are also rather creative, artistic, etc. are likely to feel that they have a strong imagination even if they do grasp what that term is supposed to mean, because they have no way of knowing the degree to which a "normal" imagination (even one that belongs to a person who isn't as "creative" as they are) exceeds their own.

Of course, it's clear that there are many autistic individuals who do have strong imaginative faculties. This is because autism is a generality. Of course there will be exceptions. But once again, where do the exceptions end and the misunderstanding begin?

Quote:
If anything I believe that those who appear more severly autistic actually tend to have stronger imaginations.


Do you realize that there are very few severely autistic people who are able to communicate in any way that might convey a idea of what their mental life is like?

But we're getting away from the point here. The problem here--the big, main problem--is that people just won't accept or can't understand what is meant by the term "imagination", even after it's explained to them. They just can't shake the idea that little Billy writing some weird stories means he has a good imagination.


Did you actually read what I wrote? I was defining imagination as imagination, not creativity, and I did not bring up little Billy and his stories once. What I'm saying is that there is no proper evidence that people with Aspergers have impaired imagination just as you are saying that I cannot prove they have unimpaired imagination, and I brought up Temple Grandin because her skills involve imagination, nor creativity. As for the more severe individuals, my little mini hypothesis is that part of the diffucties in communicating and difficulties in social interaction are caused by exceeds imagination as it would decrease the desire to try to socialize as one would people to keep to themselves more, if that makes any sense. I'm not saying this is true in all or even most cases, but I think I might have an idea with some value.


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