Non-Verbal Language and ToM Question(s)

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I have a few questions for everyone on here.

1. Is it possible that we aspies/auties have our own non-verbal language.
2. NTs seem to have hidden meanings for words and phrases. Could it be possible we have our own hidden meanings for words and phrases?
3. Could it be possible we have our own ToM?
4. If NTs truly had a ToM as well then wouldn't they be able to put themselves in our shoes and to know what was going on with us?

5. I have problems with Sally-Anne Test.
a. How is the tester supposed to know what is going on in the child's head? It could've been that the child misinterpreted some of the terminology used in the actual test.

b. I don't know about the rest of the folks on here but this is how I would think. I would start thinking this. Since Ann lied to Sally why couldn't I ask myself this "Is the Tester lying to me?"

c. How do I know I'm being given accurate information by the tester?

d. I would start questioning the tester's truthfulness about this situation.

e. I would be asking questions like where did Ann go for that minute when stepped out of the room?

f. How would Ann be able to trick Sally at all with Sally in the room watching her?

g. With the given parameters Ann would not have been able to trick sally at all.

h. Here is another problem. Are the marbles hidden in the dolls or the boxes?

This is why I have so many problems functioning in the NT world at all? I start doing this until I am not able to function at all. I end up having analysis paralysis in the end.

I often wonder if we have a different ToM, based on a different type of human. Sometimes I think no, sometimes I think yes. One thing I know is that I used to believe that humans were much more resilient than they actually are. More resilient like I am. More able to deal with truth, less dependent on their ego being stroked, emotionally/psychologically stronger, etc. Most problems I got into in the social arena in my life were caused by my overestimation of human resilience. As if I were a martian, used to martians not bleeding, and I'd often stab humans thinking it didn't hurt or cause them to bleed. By this I mean I seem to have a different ToM and not a lack thereof.

Last edited by Greentea on 23 Jun 2009, 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

First, I don't understand by "our own" non-verbal language, TOM, and hidden meaning. Those three areas that you mentioned are areas in which AS people have deficts. 1) People with AS usually have trouble interpreting and also expressing themselves in a non-verbal way. Most people with AS don't use gestures and other body language and when they use them it is usually difficult to understand what they are meaning. 2) We tend to interpret words in a literal way, partily cause we don't pay attention to intonation and other aspects of the speaker.
Summing up, I don't think so!

Well, there are many form of autism. I can say I don't have any 'other', just a 'lack'. I'm not connected to other autistic people through body-language or cultural meanings to words or TOM. I just lack these things, nothing else. Some report the very opposite, some report they have some things in common with others on the spectrum. It#s all very different for most of us with some form of autism.

I don't think we naturally do. The closest thing to what you are suggesting (for Aspies/Auties) would be:

1. Aspies/Auties can learn to read social cues & things from eachother (or NT's) over time, developing our own signals (building off of each other or by copying NT friends as well) to try & communicate w/ body language the same way NT's do (I tried to do something like it...) but it is very taxing.

2. The heightened use os the internet & emoticons to communicate our feelings (to cut body language/expressions, etc. all together)
a. Our very own Wrong Planet!

p.s. This is purely my opinion it is not fact, may not even be true, just my hypothesis.

First, I don't think we have "our own" non-verbal language - simply because that would imply there is an Aspie "culture," which I don't believe exists. From my own experience, I've learned to understand & use non-verbal communication in many instances, but I still often have trouble perceiving non-verbal communication (in my case, because my attention is usually focused somewhere else.) So there is a disconnect - messages are sent but not received, or are misinterpreted, or are sent imperfectly (received, but not understood.)

On the subject of hidden words & phrases specific to people on the spectrum - again, I think this would require an Aspie "culture" that doesn't exist. There would need to be an unspoken understanding between people on the spectrum of special meanings for words & phrases. Such understandings are developed through years of contact (like with family members or very close friends) - and (at least in my experience) I simply lack that kind of contact with other people on the spectrum. I have known individual people well enough to share hidden meanings with them - but I often miss the hidden meanings that come from the NT culture, as a whole.

I think Theory of Mind is over-rated. Very young children (below the age of about three) all lack ToM. NT kids begin to develop ToM earlier than kids on the spectrum - but I believe that people on the spectrum (if I'm allowed to judge by my own experience) eventually learn to understand that other's thoughts are not their own. So I totally agree that the Sally-Anne test is flawed, for all the reasons given. But it can be useful in detecting AS in very young children.

I posted on another thread regarding ToM in NTs, in response to someones post on an NT assuming that the other person has made the same assumptions as them, whereas an Aspie wouldn't do that. This is a more subtle theory of mind test than the Sally-Ann one, and NTs seem to be more likely to fail it than Aspies. So I'd say that NTs develop it earlier, but it either doesn't develop as far or is reduced by their interaction with people who think similar to them, so they find it easier not to rely on it. This doesn't happen to Aspies, so we retain our ToM.

This is something I've been thinking about and wondering how to pose the question. If the characteristics of Asperger's can show on different ends of the scale, i.e. no sense of personal space or too much, uncomfortable looking someone in the eye or having a tendency to stare, could it be that interpreting non verbal signals might also manifest in widely divergent ways? In other words, too much theory of mind. The problems I have in this area are more due to the fact that with any gesture or tone of voice I can think of any number of interpretations. I over-interpret. Part of this I think is due to hypervigilance, learning to avoid a meltdown prone, verbally abusive dad. I know I've read several threads where posters have talked about an encounter that didn't go well and how they would go over the incident over and over to try to figure out what went wrong. There's a woman at one of the offices I clean that I can "feel" doesn't like me. I don't know why, there's never been a problem and I have a good relationship with everyone else. The reason is not so important but the fact that I can sense it makes me wonder about my own theory of mind. I was never given the Sally-Ann test but I can see myself being confused on how to answer because I would feel I just didn't have enough information to make an assessment. If I completely miss social cues it would be because I was too shy to look at the person long enough to catch them.
Also, it seems to me that any adult who hadn't developed some theory of mind couldn't function at all in society.

For 30 years I didn't find anywhere I could communicate as myself and relax somewhat. I can here, and don't find myself constantly trying to figure out hidden meanings and unwritten rules. I'm not sure what the reason is, and I'm currently too sleep deprived to analyze it deeply.

I think this is really the "self-centeredness" of having an ASD: I have been accused of this a lot. The explanation is very simple: since we can't understand others, our fallback is to assume that others react like us. It's not that we don't care about others: we just can't predict their emotional responses to our actions. Using ourselves as a standard is a shortcut that may or may not be useful. In black-and-white situations like murder, theft, etc., we wouldn't want those to happen to us, so we don't do them to others. In gray situations, we know how we feel about things, so we project onto others this information. With luck, we get it right. Often, we don't, leading to all sorts of accusations of nonexistent character flaws.

That's a myth. I actually find other aspies harder to communicate with than NTs.

Most of the time the conversation is one sided and I can't get a word in. I feel like I'm the only aspie that doesn't overtalk. I have trouble getting started on a conversation because I'm always the awkward introvert who can't think of anything to say. NT's seem to know how to help me get going on some topic. Aspies usually don't. I have no idea what it is.

That came out funny I can imagine you on a rarities store window, advertised as "The Aspie that doesn't Overtalk!"

WoodenNickel, that's an interesting point. I hadn't thought that maybe NTs don't use their own minds as the reference to what others' minds are like. However, maybe they do use their own minds as reference. Since their minds work the same way, they'll surely go right if they use their own as reference...?

...until they try communicating with an Aspie. Then they fall back on claiming the Aspie is the one lacking ToM.

I have a ToOM, not a ToM. For those who haven't checked out the ISNT, it means 'Theory of Other Minds'.

I don't overtalk. Perhaps because I mainly communicate on so many forums I have to keep my posts short to go on them all, so I'm used to it.