Is it really lack of social intuition???

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18 Aug 2009, 5:24 am

Willmark raised this point again recently on another thread, so I'm bumping this one in hopes we can resume the debate. I think it's both important and interesting, and can shed some light on the relevance of the claim that we lack Theory of Mind. Do we lack it, really, or do we have a different one?

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TheDoctor82
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18 Aug 2009, 5:28 am

neshamaruach wrote:

Greentea wrote:

An example of my "lack of social intuition", an extreme example, actually:

I once refused (politely) to give someone in college a block of paper I had. My roommate told me later that it was silly of me, because the woman was influential and my refusal would come back to me to hurt me. Indeed, the woman hurt me later on - by influencing her friend against me, and her friend influenced my roommate, who was her friend and mine. End result: I lost the friendship with my roommate, for this and other similar social blunders of mine.

I wonder, however: was what I did due to lack of social intuition of what would happen and how influential this woman was? Or was it that my intuition told me a different thing? Maybe I did have intuition, just my intuition told me the woman was different from what NTs usually are? I mean, my intuition told me "She'll understand the reasons I gave her for not giving her the paper" instaad of what my roommate told me later: "You NEVER refuse to do a favor to a rich, beautiful, bright, popular girl in the group, because you'll be punished for it one way or another in the end".

I would have done exactly what you did, for these reasons:

1. I would have figured she'd understand the reasons I wouldn't give her the block of paper, i.e. I didn't have the money, I didn't want to drive back to the store to get another one, people who can afford it should buy their own godamned blocks of paper, etc.

2. I would refuse, on principle, to do ANYTHING out of a sense of intimidation by a rich, beautiful, bright, popular girl. Put another way: My sense of justice would not allow me to cow-tow to such a person unless they were literally holding a knife to someone's throat (including my own). I would then pretend to cow-tow until people were out of danger, and then I would probably speak my Aspie mind to her in a somewhat relentless and unmitigated fashion, and then I'd testify against her in court (even though everything about the idea makes me shudder).

3. If someone is so shallow as to end their friendship with me over a block of paper that I didn't lend someone, which led to that someone influencing another person, which led to that person influencing my roommate, I would figure I had better things to do in life than continue to be said roommate's friend.

Granted, it's a bit lonely, but at least I have my integrity, which means, well, everything to me.

If this is what I have to do to get along with NTs, I'd really rather talk to a tree.

Another classic quote by Rorschach: "Never compromise; not even in the face of Armageddon, itself"

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18 Aug 2009, 5:34 am

Greentea wrote:

I just think we have a different one. I don't think even NT doctors and scientists would ever admit this.

It brings to mind an episode of The Real Ghostbusters called "the Devil to Pay", and there's one particular part in the episode where the demon says "I'm guessing human pride is so great that you'd rather let your friends be hurt rather than confess...shall we see if I'm right?"

The point is, would the NT doctors and scientists want to honestly admit that our minds are something beyond their understanding? Most likely not. Human pride is too great; climbing higher and higher on that pecking ladder is just too freakin' appealing.

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18 Aug 2009, 5:47 am

TheDoctor, I tend to believe that we have a different ToM, based on our intuitive knowledge of the Psychology of those from our same planet. However, if I'm right, how come other Aspies irritate us? I can't stand verbosity, useless special interests talk, poor reciprocity, weird body language, cluelessness...any more than NTs can stand mine. The only thing that I like about Aspies is their honesty and lack of double-meaning head games.

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TheDoctor82
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18 Aug 2009, 6:05 am

Simple, Greentea...

We may be Aspies, but first and foremost...we're human.

We're focused on our own personal lives, and unlike NTs, we're totally honest about that.

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18 Aug 2009, 6:17 am

I wish I had a link because I read some researcher's paper on this exact same thing. He had come to the exact same conclusion as you: that people with autism or aspergers have the exact same Theory of Mind as anybody else and are using it the exact same way, it just gives faulty data when applied to NTs. And the reverse is true, that Theory of Mind gives faulty data when NTs try to "read" somebody with Aspergers. He thought that all humans use the exact same Theory of MInd and that this theory is "everybody has a neurology fairly similar to mine even if they have radically different motivations or morals". No link. Sorry. But the same conclusions as you.

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18 Aug 2009, 7:08 am

Greentea wrote:

You can be right (and I believe you are) and still be irritated. I don't think Theory of Mind means you will like the other person's behaviour or even condone, simply that you will have a roughly accurate reason of why they are doing it. Goodness knows I would have been irritated by the woman who held a grudge because I wouldn't give her a block of paper. The difference is that in my irritation I would think "how incredibly annoying she's getting so bent out of shape over a stupid block of paper" rather than "huh? why is she angry?".

I have a feeling you will be vindicated in some future edition of the DSM. I have a suspicion that the current "no Theory of Mind" theory comes from the researchers failing to research Aspie-Aspie interaction and only researching Aspie-NT interaction.

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18 Aug 2009, 7:11 am

Janissy, I'd soooo want to read that article! I'm very good at finding something on the web with just some leads, so if there's some lead you can help me with, please let me know.

Prof. Janissy
AS-NT-AS Simultaneous Translator, PhD

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18 Aug 2009, 7:17 am

Greentea wrote:

I wish I could remember exactly where it was. All I remember is I googled Theory of Mind ,Aspergers and it came up a few pages into the google search.

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18 Aug 2009, 7:21 am

I think we just base our thoughts and actions on logic rather than what is socially expected. I could care less about expectations. I'm going to be me and live my life based on what makes sense to me.

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18 Aug 2009, 7:32 am

Who's this Krishnamurti guy that always says the things I most believe in? I think he was an Indian philosopher? Is he a special interest of yours?

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idiocratik
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18 Aug 2009, 7:39 am

Greentea wrote:

Who's this Krishnamurti guy that always says the things I most believe in? I think he was an Indian philosopher? Is he a special interest of yours?

Yes, he was an Indian philosopher, and was originally the designated "world teacher" of the Theosophical Society, but decided to break away eventually. There are clips of him in the Zeitgeist films. Here's something for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKvz3BdB2EE

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18 Aug 2009, 8:55 am

Thank you!

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18 Aug 2009, 5:57 pm

I think Janissy should get some kind of award for taking the time to learn about ASD'ers and our internal worlds.

I agree it's not that we lack theory of mind but have a different/defective/possibly both theory of mind.

I know when I am trying to figure out how I might make someone feel, I kind of do an analysis based on cause and effect, asking myself 'How would I react if someone said this to me' and so on.

And I mostly manage to get it wrong..

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18 Aug 2009, 6:41 pm

Reodor_Felgen wrote:

Almost no intuition, which will manifest in failure to understand peers.

True. But there are alternative strategies for learning the "rules" social engagement. It is like learning a foreign language. Difficult at first, but doable if one persists. I am almost 73 years old and I "pass" for human (I mean NT) in many situations. I had not built in intuition on grasping the subtleties of implicit language, bod language etc. I built up a catalog by trying various rule sets hypothetically to see how they work. I was on over night success forty years later. Since my forties I have been able to cope in the NT world. i am happily married to an NT and most of my kids are NTs. One is probably an Aspie, my oldest. He has learned to navigate in the land of NTs rather well, so all is well.

Look at it this way: Suppose you were in a ship wreck and you were the sole survivor who washed up on a foreign shore were the language and customs were completely different from what you know. How would you handle it? The first thing would be to learn the customs and the language. It might take you a while, but all humans are intelligent enough to do that. Eventually you might come to be very comfortable with your new "tribe" and they with you.

ruveyn

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18 Aug 2009, 6:46 pm

PacerD wrote:

It's definitely a lack of social intuition for me. I cannot intuit what an ordinary (sorry, new to this - what's an NT?) person is thinking/feeling, so instead I analyze things to death. Most of the time kind of get things right.

I also analyse people too, I used the things I've learnt in the past, I don't know how right I am though. I'm much better at analysing people when watching other situations that I'm not a part of, but when I'm involved in interaction I kind of forget to do that and my intuition isn't all that good so I only get the odd cue at a time.

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