Aspergers and BPD

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I was wondering if anyone here had ever heard if there's a link between aspergers and BPD? I mean, I suppose it depends on a lot of things. In my own case, I was emotionally abused as a child. I think borderline personality disorder could be something I developed over time from that abuse. I fit much of the description. I would like any info. anyone might have that knows anything about individuals that have both aspergers and BPD. What specific drugs treat BPD?

I know someone with BPD, but not AS. BPD is a personality disorder that derives from a combination of a genetic predisposition and early life experiences. It is characterized by a morbid fear of rejection or abandonment, impulsive behavior in spending, sex, or similar activities, poorly formed sense of identity, and more. People with BPD are often highly empathic, have intense interpersonal relations, and typically above average intuition, a result of their fear of abandonment/rejection.

BPD does not include the stimming, repetitive behavior, impaired social skills or nonverbal communication, or intense interests common to AS. BPD and AS are not really consistent.

Given this, I'm not certain it's even possible to have both, and I've never seen or heard of research finding a link between the two (a search on PubMed returns no articles confirming a link). However, someone with AS could be misdiagnosed with BPD under certain circumstances.

Meds in BPD are used to treat symptoms, from anxiety or depression to mood stabilization. Common meds include members of the benzodiazepine class (Ativan, Valium, Klonopin, et al.), antipsychotics with mood stabilization (Abilify, Zyprexa), and antidepressants (all classes, from tricyclices like amitriptyline to SSRIs like Prozac). The current therapeutic modality showing the greatest success in treating BPD is dialectric behavior therapy (DBT).

I was misdiagnosed a while back with BPD actually, when I was put into a mental ward for serious depression (I was in a really abusive relationship, I guess that could be why they pinned it BPD immediately).

After a while, I got very curious about it... found a BPD forum and all, and thought at first that I fit in with them alright... but then I noticed a LOT of things that didn't fit me at all.

I am not clingy to people for the most part... in fact, if they are around too much, they annoy me over time. A lot of them were very big on the "where were you between 5 and 6? I tried calling you a million times, I thought you had left me." type of stuff.

I'm not saying it as a bad thing, but a big part of it is extreme fear of being abandoned by someone they love, and taking out a LOT of anger on that person at the same time. There is a book about it out there... I think it is called, "I hate you, don't leave me".

I suppose depending on childhood, it's highly possible that AS could coincide with just about anything out there in all honesty. I don't see why anything could be excluded from it, really.

I remember my therapist when I told him I'd been diagnosed with BPD raised his eyebrows immediately in shock. He said I showed absolutely no symptoms of it, and it was likely just because of the situation I was in at the time that they threw a label on me without much thought.

He said it happens quite typically actually, due to mood swings at times. But our reasons are generally entirely different from a true BPD sufferer's reasons for it. They quite literally (from what I gather) HATE the person at the time of the outburst, cannot stand them, force them to leave... then after they realize what they've done, apologize for hours and try to make up for it by any means just to keep the person around.

I hope I didn't offend in any way on this subject matter, but this was my experience about it the more I got to learning about it, and I realized a while after talking to them, "I don't fit this at all". The more logic I'd try explaining, or more support I would try to offer them in understanding why someone may have done something, the more angst it seemed to create, and I would often wind up being cussed out just for saying something like "Maybe there was a long line in the store so it took the person longer to get home."

It was actually someone on that forum that noticed I wasn't the same as the others there in MANY ways, and she referred me to here.

The meds they put me on however during the time were... lemme find you links:

Trazadone

and

Trileptal

Neither helped me much with anything, just made me pretty sleepy and more irritable for some reason.

Here are a few links that might be more helpful, but I'm not sure-they all seem to have lists of things that can help BPD, including lists of meds:

BPD Meds

Borderline Personality Disorder Treatment

BPD Center-Medications that can help (This one apparently has a test on there that you can take to see whether or not you have it as well, though I am not sure how accurate it is of course)

The link straight to the test Took the test so you don't feel so alone in it if you wanted to try it, lol, my score is 5 out of 36.

I wrote a book about this. It's called Borderline and Beyond and it's available from Amazon. I have a chart in the back with all the similarities between BPD and AS. My thesis is that women with AS present differently and are often mistaken for having BPD.

Many parallels can be drawn between the brain of a person who has experienced early childhood trauma and that of a person within the spectrum who has not experienced deep emotional trauma.

I think those interested in this subject may find the link below of interest


http://frontiersin.org/neuroscience/pap ... html/#B125

I was hospitalized for the most formative years of my life in a psychiatric hospital, with what doctors would now say were classic signs of PTSD. But at the time I would I was labeled psychotic.

I suffered intense emotional abuse and to stay alive I had to attune my self to my mothers needs as if my life depended upon it...which it did.

It has taken me many years to better understand where my psychology starts and my neurology ends, and also to see the interplay between the two.

I have written a Book Called A Painful Gift-The Journey of a Soul with Autism Which I not only wrote to help better understand my self, but to offer up my experiences to others in the spectrum, that struggle with trauma and deep emotional wounding.

Wishing you all well.

Chris

Chris, I agree with you and that is a similar conclusion to the one I came to in my own work.

I was just reading an old thread about AS & BPD here:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp1611477.html

"Anbuend" has an interesting post about how AS traits ('regular' and aquired from living in a difficult world) can look like BPD to professionals. And how some BPD-looking things can happen w/ASD folk (i.e. "I never had a friend before," being terribly worried about losing that friend, etc.)

I looked at this on Amazon, but according to the Amazon page and customer reviews, this is a workbook for those with BPD, and a not a book about how women with AS present differently and can be misdx'd with BPD. I didn't see AS mention in any of the reviews or Amazon's summary.

I would be interested in a book about women with AS and how it does look like BPD. The odd thing I've found, as a women with AS, is that I absolutely cannot stand people with BPD, especially other women. To me, the difference between us is obvious. Their conduct, their emotional demonstrativeness and their mode of verbal expression is like sandpaper to my brain, and their presence makes me extremely anxious. By comparison, other people with an ASD don't cause me to have such a negative psychological or emotional response, even if they are being annoying in some way. I just don't feel "assaulted" by others with an ASD like I do with someone with BPD.

Subjectively speaking, I don't think I've ever encountered individuals more un-Aspie-ish. But I can see how, on paper, the two conditions can appear much alike.

Miss misdiagnosed topic

That was me. labeled everything under the sun and the moon.

Artistic aspie. I suppose this is close to what I am.

I think it's not impossible to have both.

I scored 14/36 on that test.

I might have symptoms but I can't really relate to NT's with BPD. I have a nasty temper and frequent mood swings but the triggers are completely different IMO. I'm not really clingy or impulsive either. Too shy / introverted for that. Also I've never really been abused.

I see how the questions of the test can be totally differently replied to when somebody would do this about me.

Do your moods change frequently or unexpectedly?

Sure, for others it looks like that because they don't get how breaks with routines can upset me or how sensory overload happens to me in a situation in which they feel very comfortable.

Do you find yourself getting intensely angry with others very easily?

Some say that about me, because they do not understand what I am annoyed about (sensory, speech, language, routine) and thus think that my annoyance is irrational and happening randomly.

Do you cut, burn or otherwise hurt yourself to relieve emotional numbness or pain?

No, but autistic behaviour in meltdowns can look like it has to do with emotional stuff rather than sensory stuff.

Do you make impulsive or self-defeating decisions?

Others often do not understand my reasoning because I, being autistic, have different abilities and deficits than them and must do many things differently. My decisions thus may look impulsive and irrational as others may think they are not thought-through and not in touch with reality.

Do you remember your childhood as being traumatic or abusive?

A professional said that divorces of parents are ultimately traumatic. Don't ask me about that one. I don't even understand how anyone can think we all react the same and are all in the same positions/how all families supposedly are the same.

Are you uncertain about who you really are and what you want from life?

Some people would agree I have that because they do not comprehend how I cannot just do all normal things like normal people. Just getting a normal job, moving out of my home, doing all my everyday things myself... or because they do not see how I possess that inability to work in a job that doesn't interest me. They say to me I should get independent and find out what I want from life.

People also say that because I cannot do so many things because of autism which they cannot understand and interpret to mean that I am just too insecure and unsure to do the things that I should better get in touch with myself.

Do you sometimes become so stressed that you feel threatened or paranoid?

Others tell me to keep calm in situations that break with my routine. Obviously, I cannot just go on with things normally, I'm autistic.

Do you feel that it is very dangerous to deeply trust other people?

People sometimes interpret my unwillingness to 'just go with it' as lack of trust in others. They do not understand that as an autistic person, I really need to know what's going on if there's an expected change of routine to have the chance to understand and to function throughout the change.


And answering this like some other people would about me gives me 20 of 36.


Doing this test correctly myself I get a 4 because I'm often bored (2) and then I am also often impulsive (2) because of ADHD.

I've been saying that constantly. Symptoms that would be diagnosed as AS in a man would be diagnosed as BPD in a woman.

Most of the symptoms are the same, except for all the opposite reasons.
Borderlines are manipulative; aspies seem manipulative, because aspie mannerisms, like eye contact problems and stimming that looks like fidgeting are usually seen as indications that somebody is lying.
Obviously aspies have impaired interpersonal relationships, but don't have the pattern of quick attachment that borderlines have. Although I think when the other person is manipulating the aspie it may seem that way. Some aspies, particularly women, do have a fear of abandonment. It comes from the fact that we stink at forming and sustaining relationships. The borderline has that fear despite the fact that they'd immediately form a new relationship.
Meltdowns may be taken as borderline tantrums.
Any women who self-injures is going to get a borderline diagnoses at some point or another.
Aspies tend to be taken advantage of, and borderlines tend to claim they have been taken advantage of.


You know, knew that, but it just hit me how very BPD my ex was. How he'd tell me to leave and not come back, and then when I left and didn't come back, started calling like crazy acting like I was nuts for, er, leaving and not coming back!

That also kinda illustrates how aspies can get "swept up" with a borderline who acts like they understand, makes them feel accepted, and then transfers their own behavior over. After I finally got out of that relationship, people seriously did not remember me. I had to tell them to imagine him next to me before they'd recognize me. So I was just kinda the quiet one next to him, and I probably got blamed for a lot of his behavior.

Edit: also, borderline is kinda a catch-all diagnosis for any person, particularly a woman, that a therapist doesn't like. It means "difficult patient." Aspies can be pretty difficult patients, particularly for therapist who know nothing about AS.

It is pretty obvious to me that a person with BPD (or NPD for that matter) is quite possibly a person with mild autism.

Not always, of course. But definitely possible.

I revised the book 2 years ago with expanded applications for ASD's. That should be in the information. I have a book and a workbook. You may have just seen the workbook.

It's not too surprising to have that happen really, because the person with BPD is the more extreme. Even if you weren't the quiet one, and carried on conversation and all with everyone, the other person's actions, depending on how extreme and spontaneous, would likely stand out either way.

Females often are misdiagnosed because we are naturally more emotional than males anyway to begin with... and that is just something beyond our control, aspie or not, it seems. So when we have our outbursts over something small, a detail of some sort, the wrong wording, a social rule we seem to have missed that was a big deal, etc., it apppears to them that we are freaking out over nothing, and everyone automatically assumes that it is something that they personally did, rather than just a change in environment, conversation, etc. (did that make sense?) So they look at it as explosive reactions to things, and since people generally get defensive to begin with when anyone vents about a change in things (especially if they were the one that caused it), they automatically assume the lashing out or the reaction is pinned to them... I suppose because a lot of people when they get mad, are quite literally angry with the person.

Since our emotional responses are probably seen as quite a bit stronger over small things, they assume we are nuts, and pin BPD to it-like my initial doc did, lol. It is very interesting though, because of how others view it, I can see how it could easily be seen/viewed as BPD with the seemingly irrational responses to things (in their views).

I have my outbursts, but they are purely situational, not understanding something, change in routine, etc. If the other person were to tell me to leave and not come back, or if they just up and took off one day, I'm just kind of like "meh.... okay, that was weird and illogical". That is what tipped my therapist off right away that I don't have BPD. He would also do things occasionally to see how I would react after I built up trust in him-just to make sure his diagnosis was correct. He said a lot of his BPD patients, after they gained trust in him, if he would leave the room for a few moments, he would re-enter the room to being cussed out, screaming, crying, clinging to him, etc... or just threats of never coming back to see him if he was just going to leave them like that.

He also said he could not try to help them figure out what the problem was if a bad situation was what brought them in. There absolutely was no way for him to get them to look at themselves, and he said often that would be the one and only visit the person would ever have. They would just stop the therapy and walk out the second he said "So... how did you react to that? How do you think that made the other person feel?" or "Do you think there was another way you could handle it?"

So he would do things, bring them up... and he and I would run out of time before we realized it because I would start analyzing possibilities more than he could, and it'd always wind up being a "well, it could very well be something I did, or it could have been the other person-there is no way to know who is at fault without knowing intentions or thoughts behind another's actions." He would also leave the room occasionally and wait 5 minutes just to see what I would do when I first met him and he was trying to figure out if it was BPD or not... he'd come back in, and I'm just sitting there waiting, falling asleep, bored out of my mind essentially, and just ready to get the session overwith, lol.

Shortly after that, he marked out BPD on my chart in front of me.

His new ideas on working with me instead, were randomly moving us to a different room than I was used to, or using the same room we always went to,but adding a new piece of furniture, or leaving a piece of trash on the floor, just sot see how much it would drive me nuts-as in, how many times I would reference to "the tear on the couch that wasn't there last time" "the new painting on the wall that had never been there".

I oddly think he had a lot of fun analyzing me, lol.