Do you fear the desintegration of society as we know it?

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Couldn't give a tinker's cuss. Society in its current form has never been much use to me anyway.

Last edited by Locustman on 18 Aug 2009, 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Personally, I can't wait. It's already collapsing, the question is: what will it be replaced by? I don't expect the majority of what replaces it to be good, but certain aspects wil be excellent, because it allows people the chance to try out new systems. Modern society is built on Hypocrisy. If a building has a bad foundation, you need to destroy the entire building and start anew. It's not like just having a bad roof.

Meta - religions, at least those which deal with morality, can't be politically neutral.

I would have to say I dread it. The government wants more and more control, and it's awful. All these public cams watching you wherever you go, and it hasn't decreased crime at all. When I first read "V for Vendetta" I thought old Alan got it right.

I'm not sure I was clear enough about what I mean in my first post. I'd like to clarify with an example:
I find that most NTs, if I pressure them with the drawbacks of white lies, start panicking and yelling that if we all said the truth, then society would lose its smoothness and God knows what evils would come down upon us, because humans are basically evil and not to be trusted when telling the truth. I don't find this same belief among Aspies. Why?

Janissy, I feel honored that you are willing to participate in this thread, because first it's not easy for an NT to read all this stuff from us disgruntled Aspies, and secondly, I'm sure as I make what I mean more clear, you'll give me some insight that'll help me very much. I do try to keep my posts as non-judgemental as possible, though I know I don't fully succeed.

The Trial of Socrates in Plato's Apology
http://www.reemcreations.com/literature/socrates.html

Who are these fascists you refer to? The US Government? Modern society is nearly the opposite of Fascism. Extremely high levels of racial integration. Freedom of information (people do watch Fox news, but anyone can get any opinion they like from the internet). Strong civil liberties, since I can pretty much anything I want to do beyond take drugs and kill people. Relatively low aggressive foreign policy (compare US history to Victorian era Europe, Romans, Napoleonic France, 20th Centaury Totalitarianism, Crusades, Mongolian Hordes, Classic world, ect. Post world war two, for major wars the US has had Korea, Vietnam, Iraq twice, Afghanistan. That’s about 1 major war per decade. That’s nothing compared to many other nations in history.) Also, I’m not an oppressed minor but I’m fairly sure most oppressed minor’s prosperity has also risen, even if its risen not as drastically as for the majority or oppressor.

I agree about people just minding their own business but that’s always happened and probably always will happen. Not only that, I do it and I strongly suspect everyone else does as well. People are social animals and feel most comfortable in social systems, and such social systems require social consensus and conformity. I hate the hypocrisy it brings but social consensus and hypocrisy are basically facts about humans, and autistics certainly don’t escape them either.

I'd say NTs react because we know (based on experiences) more or less what the result would be should everybody stop telling white lies. The result would be what we NTs would experience to be a cold, heartless and cynical society where people's feelings and self-esteem are trampled upon (because, face it, this is often what blunt truths do). We fear this. Our very beings are made up of feelings. We more or less are what we feel. If I should walk around fearing that the next thing my friend will say to me will hurt my feelings, I'd withdraw from that person and feel afraid. I'd be stressed out and nervous.

It is no joke that white lies constitute much of the grease that make the machinery of society and communication run smoothly. I also believe most aspies benefit from the lies NTs resort to when they try to be polite and nice. Almost everyone here have experienced rude NTs and have reacted to their brutish behaviour. Imagine then if all NTs lost the ability or will to facilitate pleasant communication with little lies. I doubt that you would find this preferable.

Can't wait for society to change
It is changing
But much too slow for my taste
i don't believe in revolutions but evolution can be very very slow and painful and i see and hear how rotten the current society is in every little thing
in the way people talk and walk and in the way they look at each other
the decisions they make the preferences they take and the way they fake
it is just horrible

Society As We Know It has been disintegrating since God invented dirt.

ruveyn

Jaydee, (and anyone else): do you find WP a brutal sub-society where you fear participating? We are very honest and blunt here, almost no white lies around, yet I don't see the brutality you mention...

I guess I'm indifferent. I'll roll with the punches either way. We seem to be moving towards fascism than some grand utopia though so I guess I'll just stick with the devil we know.

I don't actually see any evidence that society is collapsing. I see change- political, social, economic. But change isn't the same thing as collapse. I think there are little pockets of the world where society has collapsed on a local scale. Certain anarchic pockets in Africa where famine, war and disease (especially HIV and TB) have undercut society. But people are remarkably resilient and the urge to form and mainatin societies is so much a part of humans that I think societies amoebically morph to adapt to new stressors a lot more often than they collapse.

Polpot seems to have really taken to heart that idea that you need to destroy the entire building and start anew. But despite his best (or worst!) efforts, Vietnamese society proved remarkably resilient and wasn't destroyed.

I live in the U.S. and have been hearing the statement that society was collapsing pretty much since I was born. I was born in the 60's so of course when I first heard these arguments, I was in my baby carriage being pushed along and listening to the soothing babble of adults. But I'm still going to count that as hearing the arguments. Even so, despite a lifelong immersion in arghuments that society is collapsing, it seems to morph to adapt to challenegs just fine. It didn't collapse in the 60's even though lots of people started using drugs recreationally and having sex before (or instead of) marriage. It didn't collapse in the 70's even though there was an externally imposed oil shortage and stagflation. It didn't collapse in the 80's even though gay people came out of the closet (so many people did herald that as a sign of collapse). It didn't collapse in the 90's even though the stock market collapsed. It didn't collapse in the early 2000's even though the internet money bubble burst. It isn't collapsing now even though the stock market collapsed again and the housing bubble burst.

Societies are just a lot more resilient than people give them credit for. People say "what about Rome?" but Romans are doing just fine. It's just that now they're called Italians and they no longer have any say in British government as they did way way back in the day- before it was British.

No, I find WP to be a very interesting, open and intelligent community, and I do not fear participating. The brutality NTs fear is brutality in everyday, real life, in their meetings and face-to-face communication with other people. Personally, I don't mind blunt honesty on the internet, even though I sometimes find the criticism hitting NTs in general unfair. It is sometimes frustrating that the intentions behind our white lies and "the things NTs just say but do not mean" are misunderstood and thought to be a result of shallowness, meanness and stupidity. I guess being misunderstood is something most of us can relate to?

I think NTs overestimate the danger of honesty and directness. Like, if you met me in real life, I wouldn't be any more brutal than I am here. I mean, if you've read many of my posts and can stomach me here, why wouldn't you stomach me in real life? It's the same opinions, ideas and attitude...only in real life I'm soft spoken in tone of voice and smile more, and I'm very petite. Why would I put you off more in real life, Jaydee?

I'm certain you wouldn't put me off, Greentea. You strike me as a wise and tolerant woman. I often handle directness and honesty in everyday situations rather well, so it wouldn't wear me out at all to meet a couple of honest, blunt people now and then. I'm sure that goes for most NTs, too. However, if everybody spoke the honest, direct truth all the time, most NTs would be stressed and worn out for walking around anticipating negative feedback, and we would be sad and discouraged. We can't help feeling and reacting this way, just as most aspies can't help feeling that truth and honesty would be preferable.

To read the way Plato as it, Socrates kicked the asses of the Athenian jury that heard his case.

ruveyn