Psychological "Misdx" of Gifted Children/Adults? (

Post Reply New Topic

i just pulled this up while looking for a possible link between AS and the movie, "Good Will Hunting."


http://www.swedish.org/16938.cfm


it seems to me a lot of the traits listed as belonging to the gifted are also AS/ASD traits---and/or are commonly seen in those on the spectrum. this article seems to posit that the main "distinction" is that those with AS have less of a "sociability factor."

i don't know why, but i find this upsetting. and i'm also wondering where the "line is drawn" in terms of this: it seems to me that it's a continuum.

i especially find it interesting that someone can be labelled as "gifted" and a certain social tolerance for certain traits is encouraged.

ex.: it's noted that due to high intelligence and a resulting tendency to question inconsistency, there may be difficulties with authority. thus "oppositional defiant disorder" should be considered a misdiagnosis among the gifted.

and yet when this trait occurs in conjunction with AS/ASD? it's simply considered a "symptom" for the most part.

just thinking about perceptual shifts that happen as different "labels" are affixed.

also wondering about continuums---where is the dividing line between "gifted" and "disorder?"

I think the issue with Will Hunting would be more of Traumatic Experiences rather than AS. True he was gifted but the southside of Boston is not a pretty place to grow up, it looked like he was abused extensively by his parents, and the social services system all around failed him.

Notice though that is was not the students and professors with the double-digit vocabulary (as it is called on the streets) who could help him but the people who were willing to come down to where he was. In fact, Will actually made it his goal to annoy people who tried to act more uppity than he was (or should I say, but their noses in the air).

The primary characters that assisted him were a community college psychology professor and his friends. The professor was from south Boston and made sure Will understood that if it was a south Boston type fight he wanted, is was a South Boston type fight he would get. His friends basically told him that they expect that he will disappear to go on to better things and that he had better not hang around South Boston and his current situation for 20 years at the threat of being beaten up.

Finally, the characters that assisted Will also did not hide anything from him. We seem to live in a culture today where anything written about a person must be hidden from the person the item was written about. Our school records are destroyed practically after we graduate. We are not allowed to find out what goes into our FICO scores even though the score can determine the direction of our future. The list is endless. This kind of secrecy only fosters a feeling of mistrust and a wanton to find out what is written. By being open and direct, hiding no secrets, then can the healing begin.

Well I'm not sure about the answer to your question but here's something to keep in mind:

On a continuum, any dividing line is almost entirely arbitrary. I would have no argument with the statement that "gifted" people (whatever the definition of that term is) are, in some way, not NTs. In the same way as an Aspie? Not really but in some ways yes.

Perhaps the other thing to keep in mind is that there are so many different possible symptoms of Autism/AS that there are bound to be those that are shared with other conditions and that NTs will frequently display as well. Besides, even among those of us on this board, I'm sure we could all find ways in which we are symptomatically different.

I, for example, do not have a problem with auditory processing that some members of this board have mentioned in the past. I do, however, experience extreme sensitivity to light, touch, etc.; have difficulty socializing; and so forth.

The point is that any line we draw on a continuum for the purpose of classification is largely, if not entirely, a matter of artificial definition. I'm not trying to trivialize AS or anything but I'm sure it reaches a point on the continuum where it's almost not there, etc. We tend to draw lines at big, easy to spot divisions on this sort of thing but it's not always possible...

Yeah, it can be difficult to tell the difference between gifted kids and gifted autistic kids. What you'll usually see when autism is in the picture is someone who has huge gaps between higher and lower skills, and someone who is performing overall at a lower level than you would guess by his IQ. For example--a college student with an IQ of 140+ ("gifted") who is nevertheless not managing to pass college classes, and shows signs of autism, can be assumed to have autism and not just the usual eccentricity you see in people who are good at IQ tests and love to learn.

Of course, newly underachieving in college is not just due to autism. There could be some other problem; ADHD is a big one because it's difficult to detect in gifted kids too--gifted kids can be bored in class, and exhibit similar behaviors to ADHD, and so the ADHD can slip through the cracks; or they can compensate with their brainpower and not show up until they hit an academic wall in higher education, which can be the first time they really have to study. Independence is another challenge for gifted autistics; they may be able to compensate for simpler chores like cleaning a room or maintaining personal hygiene by planning and using routines; but when they hit more complex things like shopping, cooking, or paying bills, they can't learn those things fast enough and fall behind their non-autistic agemates.

If autism is missed in a gifted child, it often becomes obvious the first time when academic and/or social demands increase. Hot spots are first grade, sixth/seventh grade (puberty), high school, and the freshman year of college. Mine was first detected in the sixth grade, when social demands increase, the first time after grade 1 (and the last time before college) that I had been enrolled in a school with a traditional classroom. My mom wouldn't let me be diagnosed because she assumed I was smart and badly behaved, not autistic. Not surprisingly, I crashed and burned--and got an official diagnosis--when I hit college and had to face those same challenges again.

The traits and thought processes between someone who is described as "gifted" and someone with an ASD are very close indeed. I believe it is simply a matter of severity and perspective. If the kid is unusual in many of the spectrum ways but seems to be generally doing okay, there really isn't much point (or accuracy) in slapping an ASD label on him, even if he in reality has more in common with an autistic neurology than a neurotypical one.

If, however, the kid is clearly having issues (sensory, school, social, etc) that are affecting his quality of life, an ASD label can help him get the services he needs.

And where does "twice exceptional" (i.e. gifted and autistic) fit into the picture? Is this merely someone with an ASD whose talents are very visible?

For us "gifted" adults who are trying to figure out whether we would have been diagnosed with an ASD when we were little, it's often anyone's guess if you are a "mildie" like myself. We arguably adapted reasonably well enough to simply be eccentric. If "autism" means "neurological difference," I'm undoubtedly so. If it requires clinical disorder, I doubt I am. Though if my life situation were to change dramatically, it's quite possible that I would not be able to effectively function like I can now.

i would never say a dx of AS/ASD can't be an (overall) positive thing---assuming it leads to needed services.

what i'm wondering about is how some traits can be seen as "positive" given one label (i.e.: "gifted.") the same personality trait can then be viewed as a "symptom" when it occurs in someone with AS/ASD.

the example i found most bothersome had to do with "oppositional defiant disorder." according to the article, this should often be considered as a misdiagnosis if the individual is considered "gifted." (this person is simply "strong-willed" and has a natural tendency to notice inconsistencies.)

in AS/ASD: the same trait is considered pretty symptomatic. (i'm laughing at the irony right now.)

just in general: i find myself laughing as i whiplash between the perceptual shifts in this article. what's to be NOT stigmatized in someone gifted can end up as a diagnosis for someone else.

so: stacking behavior in someone gifted is natural outcome of a need for consistency and order (perfectionism.) in someone else? it's obsessive-compulsive.

i'm not saying i wouldn't dearly love some help for managing a few sensory issues and upping the sociability quotient a good deal. i'd love to have some sense of non-verbal cues, etc. i'd love help for the sleeping issues and the general agitation.

but basically what i'm saying is: there are some traits i dearly treasure. they're a part of me. i'll always want to pick apart intellectual inconsistencies; i'll probably always have a tendency to question authority. (i just don't see that changing any time soon.)

i'd really prefer not to have any of this stigmatized as "oppositional-defiance," etc.

and i would dearly, dearly love a little more "intellectual consistency" in the above article.

that's what i'm wondering. why does a "positive" suddenly become a "negative" as soon as a certain label is affixed? and how can that be changed?

Well, first I consider that giftedness and asperger are not in same spectrum. They can be presents together in the same person, but generally aspergers are not gifted, and gifteds are not asperger (Because most peoples are neither gifted nor asperger).

As for the difference of perceptions, well there are difference of perceptions... Because asperger is considered pathological and not giftedness, a same problem is more likely to be seen pathological in asperger by those who make diagnosis that in giftedness. The aspie is seen as the "patological" one and the gifted as the "smart" one. Note though that the gifted can also be hated (sometime by his teacher) because he's smart and then his behavior seen as pathological. But they also can sometime be seen as some kind of "gods" which is not good either.

Now a diagnosis of ADHD or even defiant personality disorder can sometimes be justified for asperger as well of gifted. Because some "normal" behaviors can look like it don't mean the "real thing" don't exist.

Giftedness isn't a "symptom" of an ASD. Repetitive behaviours are, and a focus that is narrow or intense. Giftedness, actually, has nothing to do with ASDs per se.

http://www.swedish.org/16938.cfm



the article suggests to me that there's an overlap in personality traits between those who are gifted and those on the spectrum.

some of the "difficulties" noted by many on the spectrum seem to be commonly shared among those labelled as gifted.

i can't say there's a continuum between giftedness and AS; there does seem to be an overlap of personality traits.

again, the question: why stigmatize a set of traits under one designation while encouraging tolerance for them under another?

I' m not sure what is meant by gifted. I have known gifted people and with lots of friends and praise from others. I would not call them "disordered," exactly. To me, there's a distinction between the two. When I think of a gifted person the first thing that comes to mind is an NT that can do certain things other NTs can't or excells in school where other NTs lag.
I wouldn't put them in the same catagory as myself, they have it way easier than me. Some people are jealous of them but mostly, their parents, classmates and teachers praise them and love them. They are the pets who can do no wrong whom everyone adores.
They don't react to stress the same way, their gears shift more easily, they don't have the need to stim when they need to feel a sense of comfort. Their behaviour isn't strange. They don't obsess on one subject as much.
There are people on the spectrum that can do unusual things, true, savants and others but it's not the same experience as the gifted person, in many ways. You could call them gifted but it's a different kind of gifted. Giftedness with more trade-offs.

I'm not so sure the "experts" know what the heck they're talking about. Bear in mind the "experts" are looking from the outside in. We as "aspies" or "gifteds" have the perspective of the lab rat. I was in fact DXed as gifted in 1970. I am self DXed of AS as of two years ago. My wife has correctly observed that I get along better with more intelligent people. I am not at all introverted, and in fact largely meet the steriotype of the "loud, obnoxious Norwegian", as one poster on another thread observed. I also clearly exhibit many if not most of the autistic tendencies that create disability. If you look at the article and compare the gifted label to the "Aspergers Disorder" label, (click the link), I see far closer similarities than differances. Perhaps the problem lies in the "experts" misunderstanding of the underlying factors that make us tick.

Part of the problem is that "gifted" really isn't a scientific term. "Gifted" really means someone who perceives the world differently and has talents which may be related to those differences. The list of differences is eerily similar to someone with an ASD, except that it's approached from the positive aspects of the traits (as exhausted keeps pointing out).

So the answer then is Yes, the glass is half full/half empty. I think we are in agreement.