Your opinions would be great appreciated

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My own neuropsychological problems seem so different (and in almost all respects....more severe and debilitating) than those of anyone else i've encountered on WP. I really don't even feel like I belong here at all, but I don't know where else to turn at this point. After all the neuropsych evals i've had and all the shrinks i've seen...I still feel I have every rational reason to believe i've been misdiagnosed and that the severity of my issues have been GROSSLY underestimated. Anyway....I am including links to everything i've posted so far that's relevant to my very mystifying, and very debilitating, lifelong neuropsycholgical problems.

For those of you willing to be so kind....please read these threads and tell me what you think about the nature of my problems.



I know this is rather presumptous of me, but I am not seeking pity and i'm not "whining". I am simply stating the facts of my life and looking for all the insight I can get. Needless to say...I am not expecting ANSWERS either.....mere educated insight will do. Based upon all i've read on WP, I think many of you are more educated in regards to all things ASD/NLD/Neuropsychological then any of the psychologists i've seen. The thing is....everyone (including all the psycholgists i've seen) seems to believe i've exaggerated my problems. I really have an impossible time believing this after years of intense self-scrutiny. Why would anyone exaggerate their neuropsychological problems to an extent which would sabatoge every apsect of their existence? Why do people believe my failure to aquire any skills (vocational, academic, "recreational", etc...) or independence in my adult life has more to do with an exagerration of my problems rather some very real and uncontrollable aberration/s in my brain? Considering both the complexity of the human brain and how little we still know about it, isn't it possible that some severe neurological deficits still elude the professionals and either go undiagnosed or get misdiagnosed (and again... in the latter case....underestimated)? I included an article in one of these threads that would suggest just that.


http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt112497.html


http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp2446850 ... t=#2446850

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp2391145 ... t=#2391145


http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt107711.html


Thanks in advance

I highly doubt that.

Since I can't read through your threads (you know, impaired), in what ways are you impaired?

I assume you don't work, don't attend classes/study, you live at home with your parents or you're in government housing, and you're socially isolated barring the 'net and family members?

If so, welcome to the majority of those with AS.

I don't think it's very fair to say that you are more disabled than a lot of the people here on WP because you don't see us on a daily basis and you only read of what we say here on the forums. Not everyone shares their woes about how hard life is for them, and a lot of people who aren't vocal use computers to communicate with others. I mean the computer is a different world from the RL world of those who are on the spectrum. Everyone struggles in different ways.

I would not say my problems are harder than those who are also on the spectrum, I mean I go to a community college which zaps energy out of me.. and I know some people on the spectrum don't but my Mum makes me go cause I won't be on insurance if I don't go to school. I have days where I can't tie my shoes, or zip my jacket cause it's too hard for me. I bite myself quite a lot, so badly that I am going to request for Chewelry from my friends for Christmas, cause it's gotten so bad.

There are days where I cannot speak, and need to use my computer as a device for communication, I can't hold a job without being overstimulated.

Everyone struggles. Saying one has it worse than the other is not very fair or objective.

try your best to ignore these people who are choosing to only focus on the part of the thread where you said you suffered more than others, if you feel that way, you are free to express it.

no onto the REAL POINT of your thread, i think you should seek reassessment, you do seem to have some unique issues.

I do feel that 88 and i'm afraid I can't help it. I mean yes....I haven't walked in anyone else's shoes but people here articulate their own life struggles pretty well. I share alot of the social/motor/sensory issues many people here have. The thing is.....most people here DON'T seem to share my cognitive and LONG TERM memory issues. It's THESE issues which have been profoundly debilitating for me,but that's not to say i've had no struggles with the social/sensory/motor issues either.

As much as i'd like to be reassessed, that's really out of the question for the moment. I mean I could undergo YET ANOTHER standard neuropsych eval (i've already had five in my life and I took the last one three years ago) but I can't imagine the next one will tell me anything beyond what the other five have. As far as more extensive assessment is concerned (whatever that would entail exactly...PERHAPS an fMRI or something). I can't afford any myself and my insurance (which my family pays for and they refuse to pay for a policy that covers psych care) won't cover it. This is why i've been trying to find a memory research study to volunteer for. I realize that's far-fetched, but it's really the only option I can think of right now in terms of anykind of reassessment beyond what i've already had five times in my life. Now maybe if I told my primary care physician i'm experiencing problems with my long term memory he might refer me to a neurologist and my insurance would surely cover that. Still...I suspect a neurologist would, at least initially, give me the same tests (like the Weschler Memory Scale) i've already had. The same tests which suggest there's nothing significantly wrong with my long term memory. Furthermore....i'd have to tell my primary care physician i've ALWAYS had these LT memory problems (and I have). He might wonder why I never mentioned this before, i've had the same PCP for about 15 years now.

I'm sorry WhiteKitten......i'm really not trying to be unfair. All I can say is that I firmly believe i'm more COGNITIVELY disabled than most here based upon forty years of living with myself. I was not officially diagnosed with AS or any autistic spec disorder. All i've been told (based upon my neuropsych evals) is that I fit the *typical* NVLD pattern. As you probably know....NVLD is not a formal DX thus my official Axis I DX (insofar as learning disabilities are concerned at least) has either been LD-NOS or Mathematics Disorder. Nonetheless....I also have social/sensory/motor issues and problems with executive functioning. Now I freely admit they might not quite as bad as some Aspies/Auties. They are bad enough though and even if they were ten times worse, my cognitive/LT memory issues would make them pale in comparison.


I understand how you feel here WK...I am sorry. Just because I feel my cognitive/memory issues are worse than most doesn't mean I should've claimed I am SUFFERING more than most. I should've just stated the facts of my life in an objective manner rather than to imply that my cross is bigger then everyone else's. Truth be told...maybe it is and maybe is isn't.... it really doesn't matter either way. None of us can ever walk in anyone else's shoes.

Sorry Daniel, my fault.

It was stupid of me to say "more severe and debilitating". Perhaps "extremely unique" as opposed to others "on the spec"? By the way, for future reference....i'm including NLD (my own informal DX) when I say "on the spec". Since my own situation is so complex (IMO at least and I can't seem to do it justice in a few paragraphs, if at all) and you can't read my threads...i'm really not going to be able to adequately describe my impairments to you. That's precisely why I included links to the other relevant threads i've posted so far. There's no way I can explain my issues to each and every person who asks me to. It's already taken me nearly ten minutes to write what I have so far. It would be hard for me to give you even a general idea in a few short paragraphs. You (and anyone else) would just wind up with the wrong impression and that wouldn't be your fault or mine. It WOULD be the *fault* of a very complex and incongruous issue which no one can begin to understand unless i'm willing/able to type more words than you'll find in the Bible (<slight exaggeration ).



To answer your other questions, I don't work/attend classes/study. I do live at home with my father and I am socially isolated barring family members (<isolated from most of them too aside from my father) and the net.

I've read many of your other posts Daniel and you seem to know quite a bit about all things related to ASD and psychology in general. That being said, i'm very sorry you can't read my threads because your insight would've been most welcome indeed.

I wish I could help. I have similar frustrations. My symptoms are similarly difficult to describe. One problem is that the "experts" are not so expert as they would like us to believe. The other is that they don't care, and I doubt that any amount of money would persuade them to look past my flat affect or whatever it is that prevents people from taking me seriously or even hearing me.

Some of what you describe just sounds like normal variations. Everybody has strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I stink at memorizing useless nonsense, like the multiplication tables. I don't know exactly why, and even if the shrinks understood the exact mechanism, there's probably nothing they can do. So I accept it and move on. Other parts sound more serious. It's hard to tell from a distance which is which.

That makes sense to me. Someone around here is bound to know something, if only you can put it all into the right words. I'm sure that your description can only improve the more you try.

There's no need to apologize; I was just stating a factual truth. There's some severe members here, it's just that they don't really talk about it (severe in that they're worst off than the common outcome of people with AS. I, for example, am typical of someone with AS in outcome).

Anyway, since you have a similar outcome to people with AS, and you were diagnosed with NLD IIRC, it sounds like you do indeed have AS in addition to NLD (which isn't uncommon). NLD by itself isn't supposed to have the debilitating obsessions that keep you from focusing on other things, the executive dysfunction of autism, in addition to the more severe problems with reciprocal social interaction that leads to social isolation.

You're telling me the experts aren't so expert as they would like us to believe!! ! I really can't stand what, for lack of better term, seems like the one-size-fits-all approach to psychology anymore. Without getting into the whole pointless "my cross is bigger than your cross" crap....I think that individual differences can be far more meaningful than the similarities within a diagnostic label. I honestly don't think most here would be able to identify with the learning/memory issues which affect me the most. I may get some flak for saying this, but it's one thing I feel I can't apologize for. I CAN and DID apologize for implying that my SUFFERING is greater than everyone else's, that was a rather ignorant and presumptous implication on my part. All i'm saying here is that just about everyone on WP has SOME rather impressive accomplishments, skills, talents, gifts, etc.....and I have ZERO. Therefore....why would I think most here could relate to my learning/memory problems? After all....I think my paucity of accomplishments, skills, etc...is directly related to my learning/memory problems.


For one example.... I don't think most could identify with the LONG TERM memory problems (especially when it comes to Semantic and Procedural memory it would seem) I believe I have and have always had. From all that i've read...the LTM of most "on the spec" is at least average and often, better than average. This brings the so-called experts back into focus again. The article I posted yesterday would suggest that it's possible for significant LTM impairments to "fly under the radar screen" of the "expert's" standard neuropsychological memory tests (like the Weschler Memory Scale for example). Now the article is specificially referring to the long term memory impairments those with epilepsy can experience. Well okay, let's assume the article's claims regarding the inadequacy of standard memory tests (when it comes to LTM at least) are valid. If so...I can't imagine why it would be impossible for LTM impairments among non-epileptics to elude standard neuropsych tests as well.




In case you didn't see it.....here's the article i'm referring to.


http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... /123/3/472



Btw....i've never been diagnosed with epilepsy and don't exhibit any of the symptoms associated with it.



I absolutely suck at math.....I could never even conquer introductory algebra and probably couldn't add/subtract/multiply/divide fractions if someone asked me to right now. I've "learned" how to do all these things with fractions a thousand times and I STILL can't remember how to do them unless they're extremely fresh on my brain. It's the most embarassing thing in the world and yet another reason I believe i'm mentally ret*d in spite of what my IQ results claim to the contrary. Oddly enough.....I never had a problem remembering the multiplication tables. All this and my Arithmetic scores on the VIQ section of the Weschler are average...close to high average in fact. My achievement scores for math on Woodcock-Johnson are way below grade level though. It seems like i'm destined to be stuck at the Junior high school level of math. This is simply intolerable to me. From my earliest childhood recollections....I valued intelligence and education more than anything else in infinity. I don't know if anyone can understand what it's like. I feel like a passionate intellectual imprisoned inside the brain of mentally ret*d person. It really is the most inexplicable feeling in the world and at least within my own microcosm, an unspeakably horrific one too.

Sorry....I know i'm a weirdo and believe me, i've never come across anyone remotely like myself either. There's this strange part of me that sees myself from the outside looking in. I can just imagine what everyone else here must think about me. I look at my writing style and realize what an odd, disorganized, disjointed and incoherant fellow I am. I can easily recognize mental instability (of whatever kind) in myself and pretty much anyone else. I've known I was mentally unstable and neurologically impaired since I was seven.

I try very, very desperately to put it all into the right words. I think that's maybe why people here don't seem to like me very much (not that i'm unaccustomed to being disliked by now ) and why my posts receive so few responses. Perhaps they think i'm just a melodramatic attention-whore or something....idk. Maybe they think I just like to whine and that i'm looking for pity. I wouldn't blame them if that's what they think, but that's not the case at all. Obviously there's nothing I can do to prove that, so I don't know why I should even try to. People will believe what seems reasonable to them and that's all there is to it. All I can say is that i'm an extremely confused and desperate person who is seeking insight into this neuropsychological enigma which has plagued me for 40 years. Don't ask me why the "why" is so important....it just is. Nietzsche said human beings can bear anything as long as they know the "why".

Well....I felt there was some need to apologize. Anyway...considering how difficult it was for me to openly admit the extent of my problems (even in an online community of people who share similar problems where my anonymity is retained) I don't doubt there's other severe members out there. I actually would love to communicate with them because I must admit, I find it a TAD intimidating trying to relate to someone with a PhD in Astrophysics when I couldn't even pass basic algebra. All I can tell you is that I never met the diagnostic criteria for AS on any of the five neuropsych evals I had. That certainly doesn't mean said exams (and those who administer them and interpret the results) are correct, but that's all I have to go on. I don't have any obsessions that keep me from focusing on other things, at least I don't think I do. That would all depend on how we're defining "obsession". I do have some problems with executive functioning and NLDers often do actually. I have plenty of problems with reciprocal social interaction. I usually manage to alienate most people in matter of minutes, if not seconds. Thanks to my flat affect, posture, lack of eye contact, etc.....I often do so without even opening my mouth.

While there are certainly many differences between myself and the woman in this case illustration, I have yet to come across many other NLD *stories* which are so remarkably similar to my own. This is from Dr. Byron Rourke's book entitled "Nonverbal Learning Disabilites, The Syndrome and The Model":





"Upon completion of secondary school, a woman who I call H.S. initially worked as a salesperson in several department stores. Invariably, she was let go in each instance because, among other things, she made errors when using the cash register. Subsequently, she attempted a job as a keypunch operator but was dismissed from this position as well because she was slow in carrying out her responsibilities and prone to making many mistakes. Following this, she attempted several waitressing jobs. As would be expected, she found that she could not cope with the demands of such work, because she often got orders mixed up and her motor coordination problems made it difficult for her to carry trays, particularly during busy times when speed was demanded.

Discouraged, depressed, and by now criticized by her high-achieving upper-class relatives, H.S. sought help from a psychologist. On the basis of a vocational assessement the psychologist advised her that her interests were clearly in the "helping" professions. Following the advice of the psychologist, she subsequently managed to gain acceptance into a social work program at a university. Despite extreme difficulty, particularly in the third and fourth years when the academic and pratical (field placement) demands became quite complex, she managed to complete the program. This was accomplished, however, only with considerable help from others in organizing term papers, in writing reports and in other aspects of the academic program. She also received much in the way of general support from a sympathetic guidance counselor. During this 4-year period, H.S. experienced bouts of severe anxiety and depression; however, it was not until after graduation and subsequent futile job searches that her suicide attempts began. Over a period of 2 years, she "overdosed" three times and was admitted to a psychiatric unit on each occasion. Misunderstood by her relatives, who continued to demand that she should be working "like everyone else"; out of touch with her former school friends because they were all either busy working or raising children; rejected by potential employers; and incapable of comprehending the nature and implications of her deficits, she finally (and very reluctantly) assented to receiving a disability pension. With considerable supportive counseling, she has not attempted suicide for several years, but she is chronically depressed and frequently talks about being "no good" and of "no use to anyone".

H.S. continues to believe that she could function as a social worker if she could only obtain such a position. In all likelyhood, she could never do so. While she possesses a rudimentary knowledge of the field, she lacks the cognitive capacity to evaluate complex situations adequately, the cognitive/affective flexibility to deal with the changing needs of individual clients, and the emotional strengths to survive the stresses inherent even in a light caseload. She is highly vunerable to stress and, as an apparent result of this, has developed multiple physical symptoms over the years. As well, she endured a period of approximately 6 months during which she was clearly paranoid, with delusions mainly of persecution. She is currently functioning reasonably well, but it is clear that even the prospect of maintaining a small apartment, preparing meals for herself, and coping with the other requirements of daily living represent a considerable challenge for her.

Interestingly, H.S. has, on several occasions, expressed a desire to apply to graduate school to obtain an M.A. in social work, convinced that this would be the "ticket" to her success, Thus, her unrealistic self-evaluation is perpetuated in the belief that another degree will solve the problem. In fact, in the unlikely event that she could even complete a graduate program, the stage would be set for new and even more devastating setbacks".

Ok then. So we have something in common. My procedural memory for math is probably about the same as yours. I can't do algebra. I can't work with fractions (beyond knowing that two halves make a whole and other insanely simple things) and when I need to I convert them into decimals and use a calculator. My math skills are somewhere at the 7th grade level- I can add/subtract/multiply/divide (but not fractions). I can understand percentages even if I can't work with them beyond figuring out the price of something that is on sale in a 20% off sale. Luckily for me, knowledge of higher math is not necessary for balancing a checkbook or putting money in investments or figuring out rent or mortgage payments. And lots of jobs don't require higher math either. I'm not making light of a math disability that we apparently share. I'm saying you are not alone in that. You also seem to have been hit with a long term memory problem that I don't share. So it makes me wonder if we are putting (non-math procedural) things into long term memory in different ways.

Although I can't do math beyond what's needed to know how to balance a checkbook or go shopping or not buy a lottery ticket, I am excellent at putting web-of-knowledge things into long term memory so that one builds upon the other into a solid foundation of knowledge. I am not mocking you and saying, "ha ha I can do it and you can't". I am saying that since we share this terrible weakness in math procedure memory, we may share other memory wiring similarities as well and perhaps my strategies for putting things into long term memory would be helpful to you.

How do I get knowledge into long term memory? I turn it into episodic memory (the memory of things that happened to you, although I suppose you already knew that). After reading things, I walk around and talk to myself about the things I read and put them into my own words while it's fresh in my head. Putting things into my own words shortly after reading it means that I don't just remember what the author wrote, but I also have my own words to remember it by and that's easier than remembering somebody else's words. I also have the episodic memory of walking around and talking to myself about it. I also talk to other people about it so that's more episodic memory (discussion groups in college, conversations with people about world events these days). If there are factoids that need remembering, I'll plug them into a song I like by substituting the facts for the lyrics. The attempt to convert factoids into lyrics makes for more episodic memory and songs that stick in your head are called "hooks" for a reason. They stick in your head and the factoids along with them. If I'm reading about something historical, I imagine it like a movie. If there is a movie out there on the subject- I watch it. For scientific knowledge I read and then re-word into my own words. I watch shows on the subject. I try to get myself some hands-on exposure such as a natural history museum or labs (in school) or demonstrations and hands-on activities. That's 3 different ways for science knowledge to get in so it anchors it more firmly.

I say all that to see if you do any of those things. Or if any of those things seem like they might help. Or so you can reflect on how exactly it is that you transfer knowledge from short term memory to long term memory. If you draw a blank and can't come up with anything in particular that you do to aid that transfer, maybe that's the problem. Some people don't need to "do" anything- it just happens. Clearly you are not one of those people. Neither am I. But I do wonder if you've been comparing yourself to people who do it automatically and then feeling "almost mentally ret*d" because you can't and beating yourself up rather than searching for ways to forcefully and consciously make that short term to long term memory transfer.

I have some simerla dificutlies as you do. I am not bad at maths btu I have a lot of dificulty with doing maths. my memory for numbers has been mesured at a 6 year old leavel. I am in my mid 20s. I have some other dificutleis taht were also mesured in similer dificulty. My over all IQ is within nromal range thgouh. beucase I am also very good at soem thigns. My understadnign of what I get told is often nto very good. taht means I had troubel learngin at school. an exampel is taht no one was abel to teach me how to tell teh tiem until my second to last year at high school. I could nto understand what I was being told abotu clocks or tiem. the person who explaied that I understood used diaagrames and did it over and over and over. when I was 11 I was still readign the most basic books taht litle children learn to read with. then wehn I was 13 I started to understadn how readign worked. nwo I read most teen leval books with good understanding. most of yoru posts I can not understand most of. I was able to learn you have maths and meroy dificults. maby the maths learnig difiuclty? or dyspraxia. I have dyspraxia it can afect memory and maths abitly. do you have a learnign dificutly? if you have difulty with understading maby be asesed by a spech lange theripist. they can help. I have had some years of spech langae thriepy and it helped me.

Hi Hope888,


Since nonverbal learning disability is not yet a formal diagnosis, my official diagnosis has either been "Mathematics Disorder" or "Learning Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified". I don't have dyspraxia myself. I am glad to hear you've had some luck with speech therapy, it really wouldn't be helpful for my particular issues though. I'm still trying to understand my memory difficulties and that whole issue is very complicated. There is a chance I may not have any serious long term memory problems at all in fact. If I don't....then something other factor/s is making it appear as though I do. There is no doubt i'm learning disabled when it comes to math though.