Mirror Neurons and Theory of Mind/Mindblindness

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I was reading through my psychology book recently when I stumbled upon this quote:

"Recently, neuroscientists have discovered mirror neurons (in a frontal lobe area adjacent to the brain's motor cortex) that provide a neural basis for observational learning. When a monkey performs a task such as grasping, holding, or tearing, these neurons fire (Rizzolatti & other, 2002). But they also fire when the monkey observes another monkey performing the same task.... PET scans reveal that humans, too, have mirror neurons in this brain area, which also serve language. These neurons may enable children to learn simply by observation how to mime lip and tongue movements when forming new words. Mirror neurons may also help give rise to children's empathy and to their theory of mind (their inferring another's mental state). As adults, we often feel what another feels, and we find it harder to frown when viewing a smile than when viewing a frown (Dimberg & others, 2000, 2002)." (Myers, David G. 333)

Mirror Neurons- "frontal lobe neurons that fire when performing certain actions or when observing another doing so. The brain's mirroring of another's action may enable imitations, language learning, and empathy" (Myers, David G. 333).

I found this quite interesting, as I often have a difficult time mimicing the actions of others. For example, in kindergarten and elementary school when we played mimicing games like the hokey-pokey and Simon says, I was utterly unable to do it correctly. I would always mirror the teacher's actions opposite to what the teacher did (for example, if she put her right foot out, I would put my left foot out). I had a similar problem trying to learn how to knit last year. It took me a very long time to learn when I tried to mimic my friend's actions, but when my cousin actually took my hands and did each step with me I learned it very quickly and easily.

I also never learned how to hold a pencil "correctly" and only recently learned how to use a spoon "the right way." I didn't learn these things correctly from observation, either, and had to be corrected later in life.

I also do not "feel what another feels," and though I can usually figure out what they are feeling, the most I can respond with is sympathy or intellectual understanding.

So, I did some research, and I found this article, which is quite interesting and informative. There is also a small blurb about autism and mindblindness at the end: http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs182/readings/ns/article.html

I'm interested to hear what others have to say on this subject.

Very interesting, but be careful; I suspect they actually mean imitation, not mirroring (but that's today's scientists for you; they never seem to think things through properly...).

The reversed image imitation you describe (true mirroring) is a common problem among people in general, and not likely to have a particular association with autism. I didn't notice an e-mail address; it would have been useful to chalenge their use of words, and get a clarification? It looks like a promising area of research though, so let's hope they weed out the ambiguity before too long.

You have a good point, Gwynfryn, but I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I know the article was speaking more about imitation than mirroring, since the definition of "mirror neurons" speaks about imitation. You are right, though, when you say the wording of the article is a bit ambiguous.

Yes, I have a problem with reverse mirroring, but that's not the only problem I have imitating others. The knitting thing was done side-by-side, so I wasn't reverse-mirroring my friend, I simply could not perceive they way she moved each hand and needle to form a complete action, which in turn, created a stitch.

Holding my spoon and my pencil, as well as attempting to play the guitar (or even just hold it correctly), were also not problems with reverse mirroring, but were just an inability to understand the way the other person holds or does something, unless it is explicitly explained to me, and also done with my own hand (what I mean is the other person actually moves my hand into the correct position for me).

I also have trouble following another's gaze, and can not for the life of me understand pointing.

It seems the scientists are speaking about mirroring emotional states, as well, and this is probably one of my biggest problems. Even if I recognize someone else's emotion, I rarely know how to respond correctly.

Are you saying you do not have problems with this, gwynfryn, or just that you do not have difficulty with "reverse mirroring" and that you do not think that was the subject of the article.

"Reverse mirroring"? I recall in primary school it took a while to grasp that if the teacher was facing us, then we were supposed to do the "opposite" to her actions, but then so did most of the kids (and I doubt there were any other autistics in my class). As for the other things you mention, I can understand pointing and the like, and can pick up explanations about manipulations without difficulty (but then I'm both right handed, and have excellent spatial and visualisation skills, which may compensate to a large extent; I'll be revisiting your links, when I've got the time, to see if such factyors have been considered at all). I'm definitely mind-blind though; even after decades of study, I still make mistakes in 'reading" people, even on the rare occasions it occurs to me to apply such learned skills as I've manged to acquire.

Another thing which may be related, though it's not yet clear, is that when an article reffers to a person on the left of the picture, say, I'm never sure if they mean my left (which would be the same in a "mirror" image) or whether it should be the left when facing the same way as the photo (my right).

Sorry, again, I didn't mean to be confusing.

What I mean is imitating someone in reverse, like if my teacher lifted her left hand and I lifted my right. Basically, it's like you are a mirror image of that person. I recall having trouble with imitating also in hand-games, which all the girls at my school played, where they would sing a song and clap their hands with one another in a certain pattern. I'm not sure if this was because I was imitating incorrectly or if I was just uncooridinated, though.



In my school, everyone else seemed to have it down but me.



I always assume they mean my left ("mirror" image) because no one ever views an article from behind. The article itself does not have its own perception, and the person who wrote the article was looking at the text from exactly the same perspective the reader does.

A lot of people have trouble when they are facing someone else and the person says "over there to the right" because they don't know if the person speaking is referring to their own right or to the right of the person they are speaking to. This seems a bit similar to what you've described.

This reverse mirroring discussions is a perfect way to describe the problems I had in my gym class monday morning.

"Simon Says" was always a nightmare for me. I was almost always the first one to fall out since I could almost never stop my myself from doing what was said, even if simon didn't say to do it.

I am very uncoordinated.
If somebody is pointing out directions or such, I have trouble figuring out their left from my left, and have to think for a moment and visually picture myself standing where they are standing in order to understand. If I am learning something from someone in that way, I have to make a second picture in my mind, and imagine myself in the opposite direction performing the task, to figure out which movements to make. It isnt really automatic for me, to just see what the person is doing and "copy them". And pretty often, when someone says something like, "its the picture on the right", I have to actually sit there and think literally, "okay, what is right? I write with my right hand. Which one is that? I pick up my pencil with THIS ONE, Ahhh, thats right!" That might be related somehow.
I feel silly sometimes, when someone tells me something is on the left, and then I start running off in the wrong direction...hehe... because usually kindergarten kids are better at that than I am.

A pet theory of mine used to be that there's something abnormal about these mirror neurons in both autistic and Tourettic people; namely that in these conditions, the brain hardly knows the difference between seeing and doing. In autism, that would mean that the neurons for a certain action or feeling don't fire unless it's you acting or feeling; in Tourette's, that whenever a neuron connected to an action fires, you have to perform that action. There are also autistic people who experience overwhelmingly strong empathy, they truly feel what others feel; this might mean their mirror neurons do fire, but since there's no distinction in their brains between understanding by having a miniature version of the feeling (that's how I think normal empathy works) and feeling it "for real", they end up emotionally mirroring the other person, being afraid when they're afraid and sad when they're sad, etc.; whereas an NT would be able to "mirror" in a different way, e.g. being comforting when the other is sad.

It still seems very plausible, but it's probably much more complicated...

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Oh yes, that was one of the things I can say I exceeded in failing miserably at. As well as dodgeball and a few other things, oddly I could play soccer ok, usually as a goalie, if it meant running longer distances I was pretty much ineffective for sports.