CT scans, MRIs, and EEGs.

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Is there a definite way to detect AS with these tests, or does it depend how strong the traits are? Can one be diagnosed with AS or HFA and have NT brain imagery even in they have strong traits?

Great question, Motown! AFAIK, there is no consensus on reliable signs of autism in fMRI or EEG (I'm not familiar with CT). The problem is that even on a group level, brain activation differences can mean a lot of different things, may not be consistent across all people on the spectrum, and may exist in people with other disorders, as well. There's a lot of controversy and inconsistent results, from what I've read so far. And no responsible neuroscientist would advocate using either fMRI or EEG on an individual basis, particularly for diagnosis. There are too many sources of noise in the data, most of which are eliminated in studies by averaging across many participants. There are consistent structural differences (larger total brain volume in people with autism), but I don't know if they're reliable enough to be used for diagnosis. Anyone else know about this?

So far, no. You can't tell if someone has autism from any sort of imaging test. When my mother told my new physitriast I has AS he asked if I had had an MRI. I was like WTF, why would I need an MRI to prove I was autistic? But then that shrink was just incredibly stupid.

Well asking if the person has had their brain imaged by MRI might not be as stupid as it first sounds. AS it a condition which is oftein DXed after many other conditions have been ruled out. A MRI might bring to light a whole series of physical brain conditions.

But I think that the percentage of people who get their brain imaged as part of the diganostic process is very low.

According to this page, the answer is yes - ASDs are a bit like ADHD in neurofeedback scans, but have a distinctive "signature" (especially the bit from "More Recently" onwards, but the whole article is interesting):

http://www.mpccares.com/autism-neurofeedback-treatment.htm

Mind you, I don't have any opinion one way or the other about the scientific validity of this article. But it does allege that there are EEG differences between ASD brains and NT brains (and between ASD brains and ADHD brains, although they are more alike according to the article). I do know that major universities are also investigating neurofeedback scans (such as the QEEG), at least in relation to ADHD. So there may be something in it.

That shrink WAS not only an idot, but a rude, insensetive bastard. As soon as he walked in the door he said I was bipolar and that I needed to take Abilify and threatned to have me commited if I refused. He also said AS is a disease and that basicaly it is wrong to like having AS. He didn't believe me about having autism because I am so "articulate". He also said that my diagnosis could even be erased because I am so "high functning". Oh yeah, a**hole. Just follow me home and wait for a bad day. Watch me lock myself in my bedroom for weeks on end so I can play my video games, read my books, and program my own video games in peace. Watch how I only come out to go to the bathroom. He also said his son has AS but I didn't believe him. I notice a lot of mental health people claim their kids are AS in an attempt to make me believe they actualy know about AS but I know it's a lie.

PunkyKat, I did not intend to offend you. The idot vs "nasty bastard" issues are not always connected.

Several issues exist here.

1. I am sure that some brain scans such as PET or fMRI have shown that the brain of the NTs are different to those with AS. We have to accept that this is true. I think in many ways it is a good thing as it proves that AS is a real condition.

2. Medical professionals (and medical unprofessionals) have a duty to maintain their skills and knowlege. They should not allow themselves to get "out of date". I know one healthcare professional who had a head injury, he did not trust himself 100% afterwards to get things right 100% of the time. So he retired. When another healthcare worker from that field heard about this story he thought that my friend was a supermoral man.

Many health workers fail to keep up with changes in their own fields. I think it is sometimes due to them being lazy.

Note not all head injury cases are the same, so some people are perfectly safe to drive, work as a doctor etc after a wack to the head.

3. Blackmailing people with threats to have them locked up in the mental hospital is wrong. I will not write any more on this as it is so super clear.

4. A common head trick to try to get you to feel connected to a person is to try to get you to think that you have something in common with a person. I was taught this "jedi mindtrick" years ago by a psychologist. He said it works very well. It is something to be careful of. How do you know he has a son or not, let alone one with AS. I think disclosing the AS status of his son was wrong, I suspect that his son is too young to choose if he should or should not disclose his AS DX to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

Plus even if he did have an autistic son, if you know one autistic person you know one autistic person. And it's a common mistake of parents of autistic children no matter what their credentials to measure all autistic people against the one they know best. Which is just... not right, not right at all.

You have to have known a truly wide variety of autistic people (by which I mean a truly large number from a variety of settings, not just several per diagnosis or perceived functioning label, not just all people from institutions, all people from the Internet, all people from conferences, etc) before you can begin to be able to make comparisons.

And even then you have to tread carefully. Many people make such comparisons by using one to five easily observable traits. You have to really learn to look beneath what most people would call the surface. Two people who don't speak, stim a lot, and don't make eye contact can be as different as night and day. A person who has a well paying job and a wife and children may have a huge amount in common with someone who has lived their life in an institution. You can't judge on such superficial things, not reliably. Although people who do have a lot in common can often recognize each other by shared traits (but even that can be done wrong if one or the other person is judging as superficially as most nonautistic and sone autistic people do).

Whatever it is though, it's not easy or simple.

Last edited by anbuend on 30 May 2010, 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

I was told a couple of years ago that there actually WAS some abnormality about my brain that was detected during the scan.

Yeah that can happen too. I have a few abnormalities in different sorts of brain scans. In nearly all such scans in my case though, it's a situation where either:

1. It's known the scan is abnormal but there is no clear knowledge of what my specific abnormalities mean.

2. It's known what the abnormalities can mean but it is an entire list of possibilities.

The only one where they know much about it is some scans showing abnormal blood flow to the parts of my brain where seizures had already been suspected. (Too deep in the brain to show up on a noninvasive EEG.)

None of the abnormalities are ones that would rule out autism though so I was still diagnosed.

MotownDangerPants wrote: Is there a definite way to detect AS with these tests, or does it depend how strong the traits are? Can one be diagnosed with AS or HFA and have NT brain imagery even in they have strong traits? --- Motown - Simplest answer - no (my view). I am ADHD Inattentive yet a CT brain scan, a regular MRI, and multiple EEGs have all been read as normal. At the same time, I respond positively to coffee - caffeine compounds (not a cure) which, for me, temporarily reduce distractibility a little (not a cure) and temporarily increase attention span a little (not a cure). - pgd --- 2009 MRI for cognitive difficulties limited - Friday, 23 January 2009...

MRI for real cognitive difficulties very limited - For your info,
just (January 2009) had a head MRI on a 1.5 Tesla General Electric
MRI machine done at the radiology department of a major HMO. The out
of cost pocket fee (deductible) to me was $1,050.00. I have
noticeable gross and fine motor control difficulties which show up
within 2 minutes or less on such equipment as a trampoline, a jumping
rope, or playing/trying to play the piano with both hands smoothly. I
have very noticeable difficulties with attention span (attention span
tends to vary involuntarily four times a minute), spatial
visualization, and doing math (both on paper and in my head due, in
part, to short term memory challenges). These attention span
difficulties become very apparent in trying to do counter work (such
as being an ice cream vendor/table waiter) or answering questions
using a telephone. The results of the 2009 MRI: completely normal.
Again, to me, this points out the fact as to how limited a modern
day, costly MRI can be when it simply cannot detect any of these very
real cognitive difficulties/human motor control difficulties which
people can easily see but expensive MRIs cannot. For your
information, I had pointed all of these above visible symptoms to the
neurologist in advance of the MRI even asking him if there was a
piano in the medical complex so he could see, for himself, what I was
talking about. He said that there was no piano available implying
that it was inappropriate for him to watch a person play a piano so
the neurological symptoms would quickly be seen - in my view - a
little like refusing to gather data prior to a medical workup -
instead relying upon a test like the above MRI to declare to the
whole world that ~ no symptoms were noticeable to him. I gave the
neurologist the following two websites to try to help him see what I
was talking about:
http://www.balametrics.com/ http://www.infinitywalk.org/ My initial
impression from what he said was that he was way too busy to even a
take a minute or two to look at the websites. It was like next
customer please. The neurologist was quite young, like in his early
30s, and he suggested that none of what I was talking about was
taught to him in medical school and none of what I was talking about
was within the general notion of the standard practice of neurology -
year 2009. Feedback?

AS and autism are more likely due to how the brain is "wired" than to gross structural abnormalities (which is what CTs and MRIs are designed to detect). An MRI will identify a brain mass, hemorrhage, stroke, etc., but not AS or autism. Unless you have some sort of gross structural abnormality (for instance one WP member is missing her lateral sulcus), nothing is likely to show up as abnormal. fMRIs work differently from traditional MRIs and have identified functional differences between NT brains and autistic brains, but it is not yet possible to diagnose autism with an fMRI. PET scans are used to identify areas of increased metabolic activity, and as far as I know, they are primarily used to diagnose cancer.

I have had 2 MRIs and a PET scan and none of these identified anything abnormal in my brain (thankfully, given what they were looking for), although I have NLD and have definite signs of right hemisphere dysfunction such as mild left-sided weakness and decreased left-sided attention. CT scans/MRIs don't even always identify brain damage following mild brain traumatic brain injuries, even when there are clear cognitive deficits as a result of the injury. Diagnostic imaging has come very far, but there is still far to go.

LostInSpace wrote: AS and autism are more likely due to how the brain is "wired" than to gross structural abnormalities (which is what CTs and MRIs are designed to detect). An MRI will identify a brain mass, hemorrhage, stroke, etc., but not AS or autism. Unless you have some sort of gross structural abnormality (for instance one WP member is missing her lateral sulcus), nothing is likely to show up as abnormal. fMRIs work differently from traditional MRIs and have identified functional differences between NT brains and autistic brains, but it is not yet possible to diagnose autism with an fMRI. PET scans are used to identify areas of increased metabolic activity, and as far as I know, they are primarily used to diagnose cancer. I have had 2 MRIs and a PET scan and none of these identified anything abnormal in my brain (thankfully, given what they were looking for), although I have NLD and have definite signs of right hemisphere dysfunction such as mild left-sided weakness and decreased left-sided attention. CT scans/MRIs don't even always identify brain damage following mild brain traumatic brain injuries, even when there are clear cognitive deficits as a result of the injury. Diagnostic imaging has come very far, but there is still far to go. - Lost - Thanks for the info. Appreciate it. - pgd - Miscellaneous websites: - http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3892 (NVLD - NLD) - About paresis (weakness, not paralysis) - http://www.hemihelp.org.uk/ - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemispatial_neglect -