Long-Term memory

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Very sorry for yet another immense post. As usual...i'm just seeking insight from anyone who might read this and care to offer any. I know many of you have offered me plenty already. But I always seek out more from either those who have given me some or anyone who has yet to. I can truly say that, as a group, WP members are the most knowledgeable humans i've ever encountered in general. Many of you know far more about ASD's and other mental/neurological disorders than most of the so-called *professionals* i've dealt with. So I can hardly think of a better place to seek insight into my own rather idiosyncratic and life-destroying brain-based issues.

As many of you know, I believe I have very unique and profound deficits in long-term memory. I have discussed this matter innumerable times on WP. I have tried to explain these problems in detail, but I feel I may have left many of you with the wrong impression about them. I say this because most, if not all, people with ASD have either normal, or very often, remarkable, long-term memories. Without any point of reference in your own lives....perhaps these problems are difficult for some of you to conceptualize....idk.


When i'm talking about long-term memory, i'm NOT referring to what is known as episodic memory. For those of you who might not know, episodic memory is one aspect of long-term memory and it is also known as autobiographical memory.....one's memory for times, places, events and the associated emotions that come with all these.

While I believe my episodic memory, like all aspects of my long-term memory, is quite deficient, there is no reason to specify the problems I have in that area since they don't have significant qualitative impacts on my life. The impairments I believe I have in SEMANTIC and PROCEDURAL long term memory have an extreme impact on my quality of life and they always have.

Here's the definitions of semantic and procedural memory for anyone who may not know:


Semantic memory refers to the memory of meanings, understandings, and other concept-based knowledge unrelated to specific experiences. The conscious recollection of factual information and general knowledge about the world is generally thought to be independent of context and personal relevance.


Procedural memory is our memory for how to do things. When needed, procedural memories are automatically retrieved and utilized for the execution of the step-by-step procedures involved in both cognitive and motor skills; from tying your shoes to flying an airplane. This process occurs without the need for conscious control or attention



Since I have now provided definitions for these three forms of long-term memory, I no longer feel the need to say anything about my episodic memory since again as it is an aspect of my long-term memory which has no substantial qualitative impact on my life
regardless of how deficient it is. Therefore..I ask all who read this to understand that i'm referring specifically to SEMANTIC AND PROCEDURAL memory only when I use the term
"long-term memory".

For the moment, permit me to illustrate these problems by using some very simple and general analogies. The long-term memory of most people seems to act as a more or less effective sponge. This is true for most NT's and non-neurotypicals as well who are, ofcourse, free of any cognitive/neurological issues which would cause long-term memory problems. There is no need to mention the degrees of what is considered an average, or better than average, long term memory. Suffice it to say that most people have a normal long term memory and not one which could be considered significantly impaired. Thus...this sponge has an untold, and seemingly unlimited in some people at least, ability to absorb, retain, and when needed, retrieve a vast amount of everything it reads, hears, sees, does, experiences, feels, etc.....

My own long-term memory seems to be more akin to a sieve. The vast majority of things (whether they are read, heard, or otherwise experienced) simply fall out of it leaving only a miniscule amount of isolated details and facts. For example...after recently reading Barbara Oakley's book entitled "Evil Genes", I can only recall one or two of the possible genetic and neurological causes/contributors for anti-social behavior she describes. Oakley mentions ten at the very least. I have read about all these causes in her book countless times and only one or two ever *stick*. Now...I remember reading them before when I read them again and I might remember reading them from this book if someone else mentions them or if I read them elsewhere. But if I wanted to write a post about all the possible genetic and neurological causes/contributors to anti-social behavior Oakley mentions in her book STRICTLY FROM MEMORY...I can never seem to do it. All I could do is say; "Oakley mentions several genetic and neurological causes for anti-social behavior". Beyond that....I could only specify one or two of these causes strictly from memory. What all this tells me though is that there's substantially more information *somewhere* within my memory than I cannot retrieve, that I can't access, without some sort of a trigger, prompt, or cue.



Whether I actually ABSORB/RETAIN as much information as most people with normal long-term memories do is another question and not one I can readily answer. So let's just say i'm not prepared to define this as strictly a retrieval problem though retrieval does seem to be part of the issue and perhaps, not an insubstantial part. I do not believe this could be just a short-term memory problem either. That is....it MIGHT be due to some idiopathic failure to encode or consolidate short-term memory into long-term memory. But my scores on all my memory tests on my neuropsych evals suggest that my short-term/working memory is normal and even above-normal on some specific tests. As far as I know....these tests are pretty reliable in terms of their ability to assess one's SHORT-TERM/WORKING memory. There is much reason to believe they may not be nearly as reliable in assessing long-term memory and that's something I will discuss later in this post. At any rate....I have no reason to believe this is just a problem with short-term/working memory per se.





In other words....my long-term memory seems only able to work on "cue", "prompt" or "trigger". And even when it is triggered, it doesn't seem to work as well as the long-term memory of most people. The questions on "Jeopardy" can act as a trigger. In fact... I beat most people (all NT's of average or higher intelligence/education levels) at Jeopardy. Ditto for the questions on exams I had throughout my school years right up through college. I was at the top of my class in many courses except for ones with any higher math componant. In those ones.....I was the very bottom of the barrel and I think my
abysmal math abilities have much, though not everything, to do with my long-term
memory problems.

But ask me to EXPLAIN OR WRITE anything beyond a few isolated details about any given subject in the world and I simply can't seem to do it. The same thing that is true for my semantic memory is equally true for my procedural memory. I could take a course on say, auto mechanics and WITH ORAL/VERBAL/WRITTEN instructions (since I also suck at mechanical/visual-spatial reasoning and need to be spoonfed in order to assemble a simple piece of furniture or something) I could probably perform most, if not all, tasks on the spot. But I could never remember how to work on cars without re-learning how to do so each and every time!! !

This has bled into every area of my life. I have a passion for music and i've been playing guitar (mostly rock/heavy metal guitar for over twenty years.) But even after all this time, I can only remember how to play very simple songs (say like AC/DC's "You Shook Me All Night Long") and I can never figure out the solos/leads. Even if I could manage to figure them out initially, (which I can't) I could never remember all the notes, bends, trills, pull-offs, hammer-ons, sweeps, etc....that make up the solo/lead. Solos aside...I can't remember any songs with alot of chords and changes in them like say, Jimi Hendrix's "Voodoo Child". My poor fine motor skills certainly limit my guitar playing too, but that's another story. I have only taken a few lessons and I don't know how to read either formal musical notation or guitar tablature. Everything I play i've either picked up by ear, came up with on my own, or had someone show me.


Now when it came time to take a class which was dependent on a goodly recollection of the material covered in a pre-requisite, I could remember very little, if anything, from the pre-requisite. Needless to say....such long-term memory impairments will bar one from almost any career. If you can barely remember anything you learned as a history major.....how could you ever become a history professor? If you can barely remember anything you learned in law school, how can you be lawyer, or even, pass the bar exam?
The examples here could be endless.

Irrespective of their etiology or even, their genuine neurological basis, this is just one of the brain-based issues i've dealt with my entire life. It is an issue most other people with AS/NVLD do not deal with and I have been informally diagnosed (informally because NVLD is not an official diagnosis) with NVLD on three out of the five neuropsycholgical evaluations i've had. That said...i've also dealt with many, if not all, of the far more common NVLD/AS-related issues of which most of you are well-aware. Now I said "their genuine neurological basis" for a reason. I still believe that I may have imagined, or at least, grossly exggerated, these long-term memory deficits. I certainly haven't done so intentionally or consciously. The reason/s I feel this isn't entirely outside the realm of possibility is entirely external. That is...outside of my own self-observations and experience. If the only way to determine an actual neurological basis for these problems was through means beyond my own personal experiences and self-observations, then I would be forced to believe i've imagined or exaggerated them. All the memory tests on my neuropsychological evaluations were perfectly normal...at the very least...perfectly normal for those with NVLD who often exhibit some deficits in visual memory (and based upon my results...I too exhibit deficits in visual memory...but no deficits at all were indicated in any other aspect of memory.) Nobody who has ever known me has suggested I have an impairment in long-term memory and most people don't believe me when I describe the reasons why I believe I have said impairment. To the best of my knowledge...I had no hypoxic episodes as an infant which might be responsible for long-term memory impairments. I don't have epilepsy or any non-epileptic seizures. I've never had a traumatic brain injury. In short....i've never had, or at least, been diagnosed with, ANY conditions or injuries which are known to cause (often enough at least) long-term in younger people.

Nonetheless....I believe it's entirely possible to have severe long-term memory problems which all the standard neuropsycholgical memory tests overlook. The following article confirms the belief I have in this possibility:

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... /123/3/472


Also....the following excerpt from a book entitled; "Neuropsychological assessement of neuropsychiatric and neuromedical disorders" may be very telling since I obviously DO complain of memory problems and I DID perform especially poorly on the "Category Test"
at the <1st% or "impaired" range:


"The Category Test is probably the best measure in the Halstead-Reitan battery of abstraction, reasoning and logical analysis abilities which in turn are essential for organized planning. As noted earlier, subjects who perform especially poorly on the category test often complain of having "memory problems". In fact, the category test requires organized memory (as contrasted with the simple reproduction of stimulus material required of most short-term memory tests) and is probably a more meaningful indication of memory in practical, complex, everyday situations than most so-called memory tests especially considering that memory in a purposeful, behaviroal context necessarily depends on relating the various aspects of a situation to another"


So as i've stated countless times before on WP....i'm really at a complete loss here. There is such a thing as developmental amnesia though it is fairly rare. Here is some brief and simple info about DA but it is NOT 100% accurate. That is...developmental amnesia USUALLY leaves semantic/procedural memory intact while resulting in impairments in episodic memory. There ARE rare cases of DA in which semantic and/or procedural memory are impaired regardless of whether there is also an impairment in episodic memory or not:

Developmental amnesia
People with this disorder have serious problems remembering everyday events and episodes in their life, but have relatively little difficulty learning factual information.

Brain imaging studies have shown developmental amnesia is linked to damage to the hippocampus, a structure in the brain that's known to be closely involved in long-term memory. It has been suggested the hippocampus is especially important to the memory of single events - so-called episodic memory.

In children with developmental amnesia, the hippocampus shows a loss in volume of 40 to 60 per cent on each side of the brain. There may be no obvious abnormalities in surrounding brain regions that are also important to long-term memory.

There's good reason to believe this type of brain damage can occur as a result of loss of oxygen to the brain. This could be caused by extreme prematurity or a difficult birth, long epileptic seizures or temporary arrest of the heartbeat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/physical_he ... sia1.shtml



To the very best of my knowledge....I never suffered any oxygen deprivation during any developmental stage or afterwards. I was not born premature whatsover, though my birth-weight was somewhat less than average at 5lbs 13 ounces. The median birth-weight for full-term U.S. infants is about 7lbs 11 ounces. And again....I never had any epileptic/non-epileptic seizures or a temporary arrest of my heartbeat as far as I know.
Nor do I think I was ever exposed to any toxins which might lead to long-term memory problems and I KNOW I never suffered a TBI which might cause them.


While there is every reason to believe I have NVLD, I have no idea if the long-term memory impairments I believe I have are in any way related to NVLD. According to one of the leading NVLD researchers, Dr. Byron Rourke, NVLD can lead to memory impairments and based upon his remarks about this, I BELIEVE he is referring to long-term memory impairments in semantic and/or procedural memory. Nonetheless...I have not encountered anyone else with NVLD who complains of long-term memory impairments. In fact....many people with NVLD (according to the personal accounts i've read online and in books) claim to have a very good long-term memories. So Rourke's claims about this (which I will post momentarily) might be based on individuals with extreme NVLD characteristics if we're defining "extreme NVLD characteristics" in terms of low IQ scores. Many, if not all, of Rourke's case studies are based on children and adolescents with exceptionally low IQ's at either the borderline range or MR range. My own IQ scores (At least FSIQ and VIQ. I scored in the borderline range in PIQ on ONE of the five IQ tests i've taken ) have always between average and very superior depending on the individual test and subtests. In any case....low IQ doesn't always go hand-in-hand with long-term memory problems. Kim Peek is just one case in point and i'm sure there's countless others.

Thus...I really have no idea if my long-term memory problems could possibly have anything to do with NVLD or not:


Here's what Rourke has to say about memory and NVLD:


"Memory. Memory for tactile and visual input is poor. Relative deficiencies in these areas tend to increase over the course of development, except for material that is programmatic and overlearned (e.g., spoken natural language). Memory for nonverbal material, whether presented through the auditory, visual, or tactile modalities, is poor if such material is not readily coded in a verbal fashion. Relatively poor memory for complex, meaningful, and/or novel verbal and nonverbal material is typical. Differences between good to excellent memory for rote material and impaired memory for complex material and/or that which is not readily coded in a verbal fashion tend to increase with age".


http://www.nld-bprourke.ca/Content_Dynamics.html


Other than maybe the extreme case studies he's dealt with....I really don't know where he's getting this notion from. I don't even know what he would consider a discrepancy between "rote material" and "complex-meaningful" material. Maybe i'm just dense....but this seems rather vague even though I know what "rote material" or "rote memorization" means. I mean.....can't some rather complex and meaningful things be learned BY Rote


Anyway...here's a few things I said about NVLD and any possible relation it has to long-term memory problems. If it is possible for NVLD to cause or contribute to long-term memory problems, i'd say this occurs in a very tiny percentage of NVLD individuals and if so, I just might be one of them.



"Knowing what I know of the white matter model and NVLD, i'm also wondering EXACTLY how the NVLD syndrome could impact ANY type of memory at all. Could some degree of white matter involvement in the right temporal lobe be related to the nonverbal/visual memory deficits MANY NLD-ers exhibit? Likewise....could some white matter involvement in the left temporal lobe be the cause of the memory deficits SOME NLD-ers also supposedly exhibit (according to Dr. Rourke, at least) when it comes to "complex,meaningful and/or novel" VERBAL material? Most here are probably aware of the role the Hippocampus plays in memory (at least long-term memory). The Fimbria is a large band of white matter along the medial edge of the hippocampus. I wonder if damaged/dysfunctional white matter in this specific region could be the cause of significant impairments in long-term memory? It would seem to me that any of these things might cause, or contribute to, memory impairments of one kind or another. I could be wrong of course, obviously I don't have any expertise in this area. What about executive functioning deficits? To what extent can they impact memory of one kind or another"?



So beyond everything i've mentioned here....I can't really imagine what the causes/s of these life-long long-term memory deficits I believe I have would be. I doubt my executive functioning deficits could have anything to do with them. Plenty of people with NVLD, AS, ASD, ADHD, etc....have problems with executive functioning and they don't seem to experience any long-term memory deficits, certainly nothing close to the degree that I do.
I've never done drugs or drank heavily, so we can rule all that out. According to my neuropsych evals, I don't have any significant attention or concentration problems.
All I *have* according to these neuropsych evals is NVLD, (informally...LD-NOS or Mathematics Disorder officially), Schizotypal Personality Disorder, Anxiety and Depression/Dysthymia.

Though I wonder if the dysthymia/chronic depression (as well as the chronic stress and anxiety i've dealt with since childhood) could be a possible cause for my long-term memory problems. If so....it's hard to imagine these things causing or significantly contributing to long-term memory deficits as SEVERE as I believe mine may be.
There is evidence to suggest that chronic depression, anxiety and stress can reduce
hippocampal volumes. I don't know if these things can result in any other neurological changes which might have a severe impact on long-term memory though. There are plenty of people in this world, even those we might define as neurotypicals, who deal with chronic, even life-long, depression, anxiety and stress. Few, if any, of these people seem to have long-term memory problems as profound as mine appear to be. How do I know this?
Well....I don't know for sure of course. All I know is that i've encountered countless numbers of people (online and elsewhere) who claim they've had life-long depression, anxiety and stress and NONE said anything about long-term memory impairments at all let alone ones as serious as I believe mine are. Lots of people suffer from depression, anxiety, stress. Some even suffer with these things their entire lives. Many people with and without serious life-long depression/anxiety/stress don't take care of themselves. They use drugs, drink heavily, don't eat right, don't exercise,etc.....But NONE of these things, either in isolation or combined, seem to cause long-term memory impairments which are nearly as severe as I believe mine may be.

Bottom line.....i'm simply out of theories....i'm out of etiologies and I don't even know if there is any considering that my own unintentional/unconscious exaggerations or imaginations may be the cause of all, or most, of my memory problems. Billions of people perceive all kinds of things about both themselves and the world external to them. Things which have no basis in reality and it is often said that perception IS reality. I can't possibly begin to think of why I would simply imagine or exaggerate serious memory impairments that have no actual neurological origin/s. Still...I can't rule it out of the realm of possibility since if I truly have any neurological basis for this, it's about as "occult" as it gets.

This is my entire motivation for trying to get some neuroimaging done. Neuroimaging devices like MRI/fMRI might not be able to PROVE the etiology
of my memory problems, but they may be able to suggest some possible origins.
Researchers believe the Eidectic memory of the late Kim Peek may have had something to do with his complete agenesis of the corpus callosum and this was detected on an MRI. I believe there were other neurological aberrations having to do with Peek's frontal lobes which were also implicated as possible causes for his phenomenal memory and these were picked up by an MRI too. The epileptic patients studied in the article I included in this post (from the Oxford Journal of Neurology) also exhibited some neurological abnormalities on their MRI results. These were the same epileptic patients who complained of LT memory problems. Specifically, they exhibited hippocampal sclerosis in one case, an arachnoid cyst in another and asymmetry of the temporal horns in one more.

In other words.....neuroimaging has it's limits in terms of what it can us about anyone's brain. For example...an MRI can likely tell us little or nothing about the origins of Dyslexia, Dyscalculia, Asperger's, NVLD, etc....However....neuroimaging techniques (MRI/fMRI seem like the best ones in this respect) seem to be relatively better at determining the origins ,at least the possible/likely ones, of abnormal memory,
including abnormal strengths of memory like the ones Kim Peek had.


Ugh....sorry again for this Lord of the Rings-sized post.

Last edited by Horus on 13 May 2010, 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

I will be honest. I did not read anything in your post. I saw how big it was, analyzed how much anxiety i would get by sitting here reading it, didn't read it, then decided...hmm what shall i say.

you massive wall of text, shorten it. the length looks like how I would talk. So when I write, i say everything, then simplify, then simplify some more ect... until bam, I have something someone will read. keep in mind im not bashing you, but I'm just saying, instead of apologizing for this LOTR sized block of text, simply edit it.

Wow, very interesting post. I'm sorry I don't have anything useful to say, but I enjoyed reading this (also enjoyed that you called it LOTR sized). I have similar memory issues like you described with the evil genes book, information you've read a bunch of times and remember when cued, but can't remember out of context. There are bits and pieces that stay with me, but most of what I've ever learned is only accessible when something related comes up.

I'm sorry that I am not knowledgeable enough to offer any possible explanations. I wanted to say I read your post, and that you present an intriguing question (though I am aware that this issue must be painful for you and that you were not trying to "intrigue" but rather seek input.)

The fact that you are able to retrieve some information when prompted with a question seems like an avenue worth exploring further. It could provide some practical accommodation though perhaps not the answer that you seek, for instance by writing down questions as you read a book so you can access the info you have read by looking at the questions. Perhaps that would just be too onerous, I don't know. It seems to me there are other conditions in which people are not able to respond unless prompted? I can't recall any specifics, unfortunately (though my memory is rather good...).

Are you able to retain physical memory, like riding a bike or typing? You mention the guitar, which also relies on sense-memory but it's more complicated than just moving the fingers. I tried learning the guitar and found I was utterly incapable. I have very little musical aptitude, but it never even came to that. I couldn't form my fingers into the chords without stopping for each chord change. Practicing was no use since it's hard to practice a skill one does not have in the first place.

For what it's worth, I find it unlikely that you are merely imagining these problems. What purpose would your subconscious mind have for playing such a trick on you? It's not liek you're trying to suppress a painful memory or the like.

Sorry for being no help. But I wish you the best.

Sorry No worries about not reading it. It's a complicated and confusing issue and I don't describe it well in the first place.

Unfortunately it's getting late so I don't think I can edit it tonight. I will try my best to do so tomorrow but I have other things I need to attend to.

Which is why I wanted to post it tonight.


I type so slow as it as....it takes me forever to write anything.

Thank you!! !


Everything you said here might be quite useful actually. If possible and desirable, i'd like to know some more details about your own memory issues. For example....how much of the material do you retain after you complete particular class in school? Does it depend on the class and how interesting the material is to you? How about your procedural memory? Did you ever take any industrial arts courses? If so.... do you think you'd remember how to do alot of the things you were taught in IA? Just a few questions...answer them if you like and tell me anything else about your
memory if you wish.

I will happily answer your questions as best I can. I'll come back tomorrow when I'm not so tired.

bee33 wrote:

Yes....if i'm permitted to speak frankly...the issue has been inexpressibly painful for me all my life. While I often fail.....I try not to actually complain/whine about it since I know complaining/whining is some sort of taboo in America. I personally don't understand why, it never bothers me when other people whine and complain.
Whatever the case....I simply try to matter-of-factly describe the issue though
sometimes it comes off as whining and complaining.

And sometimes I intentionally whine and complain about it and don't give a damn about what people think of me doing so. Nobody is forcing them to read it or listen to me after all.





Yes....i'm trying to explore this avenue and every other one. Trouble is....accommodations only go so far ofcourse. Nobody is going to accommodate
a lawyer who only remembers a few isolated things they studied in law school for
example. Such a person probably wouldn't even make into law school in fact since
almost all knowledge is cumulative. In fact...someone with LT memory problems as bad
as I believe mine are would likely have a whale of time getting a BS/BA in almost any subject. The further you go in college/uni, the more dependent you are on what you learned in previous courses. The suggestion you offered is sound....but it's simply impossible to do that with everything. Especially when we're talking about many critical things related to academics and vocations.



Yes....I can ride a bike to this day and I haven't done so for years. I only hunt and peck when typing....though I hunt/peck fairly fast though with alot of errors. I have not been able to memorize the keyboard though I guess I really never tried either. This in itself doesn't seem too unusual. Lots of people don't know how to type. My Mother is an executive at a major corporation and she's been using a computer/keyboard for 25 years. Nonetheless....she still can't type fast, in fact she's even slower than me and has never memorized the keyboard. She knows next to nothing about computers too. Believe me, i'm not a great guitarist at all and aside from my memory problems, (or what I believe are genuine neurologically-based memory problems at least) my crappy motor skills also severely restrict my guitar-playing. There are some chords I can't even play. If the chords are very complicated and you have go from one complicated chord to another in rapid succession, I epic fail at that

A good example the stuff someone like Dave Matthews or John Frusciante from the Red Hot Chili Peppers plays, just to name a few examples.





As much as I hate to admit it....I find it unlikely too. After all....it might be alot easier to "unimagine" or "unexaggerate" memory problems that don't exist than it would to overcome serious neurologically-based ones. I can't think of any purpose my subconscious would have for doing so either. Still....people DO imagine all sorts of
horrible things about themselves if the Somatoform disorders are any indication.

Furthermore....I have no evidence whatsoever external to my own experiences and self-observations and that's just not QUITE good enough in my book. Some people who aren't even psychotic are convinced god talks to them (in ways they never can quite explain adequately and if they believe they actually HEAR god's voice....they usually are psychotic) without one shred of outside evidence to demonstrate that. In any case...i'm simply reluctant to rely soley on my own self-observations and personal experiences.
Maybe part of that reluctance is wishful thinking. I can't imagine anyone would want to accept they have memory problems as severe and life-diminishing as I believe mine are.
But...it's also because I really don't trust myself 100%. Aside from the fact that *normal* humans perceive all kinds of things which have no basis in reality, I happen to be a human with some pretty significant and painful mental disoders. These would include NVLD, Schizotypal PD, Major/ChronicDepression, Anxiety, Panic attacks, etc....Thus....my judgement is not always perfect. I can't begin to tell you the number of times i've ran off to the emergency room (and one time I even called the EMTs ) because I was convinced I was having a heart attack.

My own self-judgement about any serious memory problems I might have must be taken with a slight grain of salt at least.

No worries



<------ Very nice kitty btw

I agree that there's no reason why complaining should be a taboo.That is one of the functions of human society, to offer some solace to one another by lending an ear to someone who is troubled. We have gotten to the point where it's only acceptable to complain to someone we pay to listen to us, like a therapist.

And you're right that it's an American taboo. I'm originally from Italy, where saying "How are you?" to someone yields a rundown of all their physical ailments rather than the curt "Fine" which is expected here. There's even a saying in Italy that says "Complaint is free," meaning whatever else, you are always free to complain.

And WP is a free-complaint zone!

You weren't complaining in your OP however. And I am sorry for the pain you are experiencing.



I learned to touch-type in high school but I have always been a slow and inaccurate typist. I've gotten to the point where I'm happy to just approximate the words I'm trying to type (with lots of switched-around letters) and then using the right mouse button to correct them. (Firefox gives you spelling suggestions you can click on when you right-click on a misspelled word. I don't know if IE does that too.) I've never thought of my bad typing as a particular issue. Like you said, many people are not good at typing.

I don't have a great semantic memory either. My procedural memory is spotty but things become rote with practice. My episodic memory is just fine. As is yours, apparently.

I understand the difference between these three types of memory but I think you do yourself a disservice to keep them so compartmentalized. You wrote in another, similar post, "what good is it to remember going to Cedar Point when you were 7? I need to remember things I read in a textbook". (This post triggered my memory of your other post. Triggering of memories is common. Perhaps the norm rather than the exception.) It can be a lot of good if you accept that your episodic memory is better than your semantic memory and work within that limitation.

Long ago when I was a child, I realized that I had a much easier time remembering academic info that I learned on field trips than I did academic info that I learned listening to the teacher. Decades before I ever heard the terms "episodic memory" or "semantic memory", I figured out that I remembered facts and concepts much better if they were tied to specific events that I also remembered. Then began a process of consciously transferring semantic info into episodic memory. I didn't have a name for this. I just realized that this was how I needed to remember things. I studied in odd places so that the memory of the place would trigger the memory of the semantic info. I took myself on field trips outside of school . I made up jokes about the semantic info and the memory of the joke and telling it to people cemented it in my head. I made up hummable little jingles about the info and played them in my head during tests.

All this to say that you should play to your strengths instead of discounting them. If your episodic memory exceeds your semantic memory, make a conscious effort to move info into episodic memory by doing things while you learn rather than just sitting in a library cubicle which is too blank to inspire episodic memory. If you need triggers, give yourself triggers as I did by making up jingles. There are coloring books made for adults about scientific concepts. I used them constantly.

I transferred procedural memory into episodic memory by writing down the steps to things in differently colored pens and with fancy calligraphy. If the procedure is something physical, I have often pantomimed it (when alone, it looks weird) or taught it to somebody else. Teaching something to somebody else will cement a procedure in your mind rock solid.

This only worked on math to a certain extent. I remember my multiplication tables as a musical jingle and that works. But, like you, I can't multiply or divide 2 digit numbers in my head unless one of them is 10. But that's ok. To be honest, I can't add or subtract 2 digit numbers in my head either. Therefore I do not have a job in sales (where you actually have to be fast with the figures) and I carry a calculator and pen and paper in my purse. Math problem solved.

It's all about finding workarounds.

Janissy wrote:

I don't know why i've given you the impression that my episodic memory is fine. I don't believe it's fine at all and I tried to make that clear in my OP. Maybe you misunderstood me somehow or maybe it just seems fine to you based upon things I said in my OP and/or in other posts. I can't remember alot of things from my past at all. There are some things I remember well and others I have a very vague, foggy recollection of. But there are countless things in my past I don't remember at all. Just to name a few examples, I can only remember the names of a few teachers I had in all my years in school (from Kindergarten up through college.) There are teachers and classes I took that I don't remember AT ALL. I only know that I took them at all because, for example, I can only
remember five classes/teachers I had in 7th and 8th grade. Obviously I took more than five classes and had more than five teachers in 7th and 8th grade. There are some teachers/classes I remember because.... well....I guess there was something memorable
about them to me. Episodic memory seems alot harder to assess anyway. I'm really not sure if mine could be considered normal or not. It seems like alot of people remember
the names of their teachers and classes they took though. All I can say is that there's alot of things I do remember from my past. But alot of things I don't remember are things most people seem to remember.





For whatever reason....I didn't really think there was much wrong with my semantic memory before I was well into my twenties. I never really had to apply my semantic memory to much of anything for one thing. Sure I had to apply it to exams, but like I said, exam questions serve as a trigger. But I never went very far in college. I only have an AA degree in liberal arts and I obtained that with course substitutions for math. Thus....I didn't take too many course, if any at all, that were dependent on the material from a pre-requisite course. Now even though I remember very little from all the RECREATIONAL reading i've done, (and i've done quite a bit) I was under the impression that was just
common for everyone. I did believe my memory was bad for certain things, like guitar
solos for instance. But I never really believed it was as impaired as I now believe it is.
I don't know why, because looking back, there was never a time when my semantic or
procedural memory was any better than it is today.

I just didn't notice it.....not as much as I notice it today. And if I did notice it, it just didn't bother me for some reason or perhaps the notion that my memory was so bad allowed me to wallow in self-denial for many years. Maybe I was just overwhelmed by it all....idk. While I was never in special ed, none of the classes I had in school were very challenging outside of math and obviously, I couldn't hack any math beyond the pre-algebra level. So unlike yourself, i've never developed any memory strategies because I never needed to. I realize I must develope some now if I decide to go back to college. Whether they will work or not is another story, but I have to try. I don't know if the ones you've suggested here would work for me or not.


For one thing....I find it difficult, if not impossible, to study anywhere except in a quiet, cool and comfortable place. So this would rule out mostly any other study locations aside from my own home or the library. I live in south Florida and it's usually very hot and humid down here. So I know I wouldn't be able to sit in a park or somewhere else outdoors and study while i'm sweating bullets. I can't think of too many other quite, air-conditioned indoor places I could study. Making up jokes (even though I have little sense of humor in any conventional sense) and jingles might work though and again, these are not things i've tried because I never had to try them. The important thing here isn't remembering enough material so I can later retrieve it via the trigger mechanism... aka... exam questions.

Rather...it's important for me to absorb, retain and retrieve as much information as possible outside of the classroom. It's important for me to remember enough material from a prequisite, say algebra I/intro algebra, so that I can apply it in algebra II/intermediate algebra.

Furthermore....it's important that I remember much, if not everything, I learn in college IF i'm going to need to remember what I learned for a job. Again...no one who can't remember anything from all their psychology courses and courses related to psychologly like Statistics and Probability is going to be a psychologist. All of this is painfully obvious and that's the crux of the matter here. I can get through any number
of courses easily enough with my trigger-dependent memory which only serves me on exams. I can do this much without developing and applying any memory strategies at all.
The problem arises in all the practical applications in the real world and when i'm taking some course critically dependent on the material from a pre-requisite. That said....i'm going to have to develope some sort of memory strategies, mnenomic devices...whatever.....
if I want to have any hope of retaining vast quanities of info and then be able to retrieve it WITHOUT a trigger. Aside from the things you mentioned which may or may not be suited for me personally, I really don't know what i'm going to develope that would work for me.
Nonetheless....i'm bound and determined to figure something ASAP. I want to start classes no later than January and I need to have all my ducks in a row before that. So if I need a memory triggers either for a pre-requisite-based course or a job, those are going to be difficult, but hopefully not impossible, to develope and apply.


In short....all your methods and advice here are sound. But what works for you may not work for me. That's not to say i'm not going to try your methods, but I may need to have other memory strategy alternatives in place if the ones you've suggested here aren't doing the trick. I never had a problem memorizing my multiplication tables and I never needed jingles or anything else to do so. On the other hand....i'm sure you had no problem remembering many things which simply fell out of my brain. Memory is a complicated thing and everyone's memory is different. Thus....i'm just going to have develope tailor-made strategies. Identifying them will be the first hurdle to cross and not necessarily an easy one. I would say that applying them will be a bridge I cross when I come to it, but that will not do. I need to identify effective AND know exactly how i'm going to apply before I face something I need to apply them in.

Thanks for your great suggestions....i'm going to check some of the coloring books you mentioned, those sound like especially good mnenomic aides for me.

to be honest with you i did not read all of your first post either, but i do somewhat relate to what you are saying.

i used to have a good memory, but as i got older it kind of hit a ceiling. i often find it difficult to remember new things, which impacts my grades.

i remember i started getting terrible grades in math in high school, as soon as i actually had to start remembering formulas instead of relying on my intuition to solve the problems. before that i never even opened a single math book or had to study.

my gpa has sunk to a 3.2. which is really depressing because i enjoy what i am studying. all of my worst grades were in classes which had exams requiring me to memorize things. as a result, i had to lower my ambitions and choose a relatively simple major, psychology. before that i was mostly interested in marine biology.

high school was especially hard because due to how it requires essentially no analytical thinking, all the work was memorization. i hated it. i would mix up dates in history, i would forget how to spell scientific words, i would forget the structures of atoms and cells, i would forget the names of important people, etc.

what is also annoying is that in college the only courses that require no memorization are things like poetry, which i have never really shined at.

Well...you're far better off than me in this respect at least. I took introductory algebra
twice, for the FIRST TIME in college. I dropped it both times, just couldn't grasp much
of it at all. I couldn't do on intuition or by remembering formulas...I just couldn't do it
at all. Again....my arithmetic subtest scores on IQ tests are always average-high
average. Though my block design scores are always low average-borderline and
block design MIGHT be a better predictor of how well someone will do at HIGHER
math than anything other subtest on WAIS. I don't know that for certain though.
This in itself doesn't seem too uncommon for those with NVLD, dyscalculia and any
other disorders which can negatively impact math performance. Even many people
with AS, who are often stereotyped as math and science whizzes, seem to be no
better than I am at math. I would suspect that alot of the people with AS who do
poorly at math also exhibit the common NVLD traits though.


Long-term memory impairments though....that's a different story entirely. There doesn't seem to be many people at all with AS/NVLD who complain of LT memory deficits. Certainly nothing close to as severe as mine appear to be. I'm trying to get to the bottom of it all though. Hopefully i'll be able to get an MRI/fMRI before summer is over and if that doesn't tell me anything more about these LT memory impairments, nothing else probably will. I'd like to know what i'm dealing with so any potential treatments (if any exist) can be tailored to whatever my specific neurological issue is. I may be pipe-dreaming here, but there just might be some ways to at least improve my memory yet.
Perhaps there's a particular nootropic drug which would be right for me. Or maybe some
sort of therapy and exercises I can try. I don't hold out much hope....but i've gotta to have SOME.

Janissy's post brought to mind some of the memory strategies I've employed, and I thought I'd mention them in case any of them might be useful for you. Many of us on the spectrum are visual thinkers. I don't know whether this applies to you or not.

When I was in junior high school, I used to study for tests by summarizing the notes I had taken in class on pink paper, using different colored markers to write down short facts, names, and dates. When I was taking the test, I found that I would recall where on the page a particular item was, and what color it was written in, and that would give me the answer. When I was slightly older, re-writing my notes took up too much time, so I just studied the class notes I had taken,sometimes circling or underlining items in different colors, and even then, when test time came, I would remember where on the page an item was, and whether it was isolated or part of a paragraph, etc. I didn't do all this because I struggled with memory, but because I was a nerd who wanted to get As.

I have a timeline in my head for dates, that I didn't consciously create, but whenever I think of a date (just the year), I automatically think of the spot it is on the timeline. This is not some wondrous remembering tool, as it's rather vague.

I think if I were needing to remember whole areas of information, I would try drawing "knowledge maps," schematic diagrams that would serve as reminders for each concept.

I don't know what specific area of study you are hoping to pursue or if you have a particular job in mind that you hope it will lead to, but there are areas of study that don't require remembering facts or info learned in a previous course (like literature and art, which are what I studied, though they don't really lead to a particular job), and there are colleges that don't have required courses outside one's field (including the one I went to).

Horus, I think b33 and Janissy have some really good workarounds. I have a few tricks as well (I'll tell you about them in a minute).

You said, "i'm going to have to develope some sort of memory strategies, mnenomic devices...whatever....." but when they suggested some memory strategies, you seemed to immediately assume they wouldn't work for you. Probably some of them, maybe a lot of them won't. I'd still recommend making a list of all the different suggestions you get (you'll probably get a lot of good ones here) and trying each one on the list with an open mind. After all, if you're going back to college and have to learn how to memorize fast, you've got nothing to lose, right? Even a slight improvement could make the difference between passing and failing.

Speaking of which: if you need cues but you have problems remembering when you have to write something, you might want to take classes that have multiple choice rather than essay exams.

Here are things that have helped me remember what I learn.
* Writing EVERYTHING down. The physical act of writing helps. Putting things into my own words helps. Being able to look at my notes later would be helpful for most people, but it doesn't actually work for me. If I want to read my notes, I have to:
* Rewrite (or retype) my notes. Helps for the same reason as writing them down in the first place, plus I can actually read them. Whenever I have an exam, I consolidate all my notes for the class up to that point and try to rearrange all the points into the most logical order as if I were writing the notes to explain them to someone else.
* Make things as non-rote as possible. I look for any way I can relate something I've just learned to something I already know. If I have to memorize a word, I look to see if it has any familiar roots. Then I can guess the meaning from the roots. Is there a principle that explains why this chemical formula is written the way it is? I'll draw diagrams and make up stories sometimes.
* Use episodic memory. When I learn something new about the brain, it's often similar to something I learned in a previous class. That triggers my memory of learning during the previous class, which somehow also helps my memory for the new information.
* If I can't "un-rote" things, I set them to music. In middle school, I had to memorize all the elements of the periodic table in order. I set each group to the tune of Old McDonald Had a Farm. To this day I can still remember several sets.
* Teach someone else. Often helps me figure out things I didn't understand as well as I thought.
* When all else fails, flash cards. But they only work if I say them out loud. Just looking doesn't do much.
* Walk around while memorizing.
* Minimize the amount I have to memorize. I figure out what is a) important enough to the teacher to be tested, b) a main point and therefore worth knowing or c) interesting to me for idiosyncratic reasons, and then eliminate the rest. I don't take notes on it in class, I don't study it at home. Makes a huge difference.
* I'm not a visual thinker, but I do make concept maps to see how things I've learned fit together. Can be handy when writing an essay.

BTW, this is probably irrelevant, but procedural memory is actually a totally separate system from both episodic and semantic memory, as you may have heard at some point. This is why so may patients with amnesia, like HM, can learn a skill using procedural memory and not remember ever using the skill before. Procedural memory uses motor & premotor cortex, the cerebellum, and the basal ganglia IIRC (btw, the cerebellum and basal ganglia are also involved in movement and executive functioning problems), while episodic and semantic memory both start out in the hippocampus and medial temporal lobe and over years, get encoded in the rest of the brain. So 2 different systems are actually broken...no wonder you have such a hard time....

Also BTW--"unskilled labor" actually requires a ton of procedural memory. I learned this the hard way while working retail--I didn't learn how to make drinks quickly enough because it's almost impossible to get information INTO my procedural memory.