Experiment: Autistic Culture/Customs [add on please].

Post Reply New Topic

Let's assume an autistic nation is formed. How would this work? Well I'll post some examples.
Tips for living in an autistic nation:
1# Do not use threats or intimidation against autistic people, as individuals or as a group. Doing so in negotiations has a bad affect; the autistics may simply call your bluff and risk whatever you threaten rather than surrender to your posturing. Due to past experiences as a collective and individually with bullies and threats they will rather adopt a "Come at me bro" attitude and their politicians reflect this.
2# "Polite Lies" do not exist in autistic society, at least not to the same level that exists in neurotypical society. Autistic people are less likely to lie over 'polite lie' situations and in general due to a cultural disdain for deceit.
#3 All movies/TV shows will be required to add subtitles for mouthed words. Make that a national law, and make a regulation requiring that the subtitles are in eye dialect to factor in the dialect or whatnot
4. Reading Autistic People is relatively easier, and harder for neurotypicals due to their wiring. You can likely simply ask them and they will explain their mental dispositions, or give it away freely in discussion with other people. IT is harder to neurotypicals as neurotypicals focus on body language and posturing to a larger level. Many aspies by default stay in a 'mute/neutral' facial expression and rarely change that. That does not give away their facial expressions
5. Autistic culture is very anti-hierarchical and factional. Various autistic cliques are formed and it is hard to gain a consensus in the autistic nation. A better term may be to refer to them as a "united tribes" of autism or something similar. There are strong anarchist strains in autistic culture, yet some aspects of the culture might have excessive rules [e.g. ritualized and detailed rituals dealing with public transportation]
6. The concept of 'personal space' is limited in autistic culture. The distance that autistics and neurotypicals talk to each other is noticeably smaller than the distance neurotypicals from the same culture they immigrated from talk to.
7. Referring to yourself in the third person is used by a plurality of people in the society. Government officials, politicians and whatnot use that when they are in political discussions, debates and whatnot - partially to avoid narciccism and "neurotypicality"
8. Staring at someone or excessively avoiding someone's gaze is not "dishonesty" or "intimidating or provoking a fight" unlike in many neurotypical cultures.
9. Any such analogies, or metaphors are not used as much - speaking in Jive or using large amounts of neurotypical slang will not work. By default people use the formal words to describe things, and rarely use NT-based slang. Aspie 'slang' or metaphors etc are often technology or science-based - e.g. referring to a brain as a 'processor' etc etc.
10 "colored people time", "Filipino Time" or whatever delayed times DO NOT EXIST. If they say they will be there at a certain time, they WILL be at that time, plue or minus 5 minutes at most. The "3 hour delay" does not apply, if you do this you will cause anger as that is a major annoance.


add on please =]

Disagree.

I'm composing this in Notepad. As such, I'm not using the official quote markup. I'll distinguish them differently.

---Do not use threats or intimidation against autistic people, as individuals or as a group. Doing so in negotiations has a bad affect; the autistics may simply call your bluff and risk whatever you threaten rather than surrender to your posturing. Due to past experiences as a collective and individually with bullies and threats they will rather adopt a "Come at me bro" attitude and their politicians reflect this.

Well, of course you shouldn't use threats or intimidation at all. Some autistics may react this way, but to say we will all adopt this sort of attitude is an overgeneralization.

---Polite Lies" do not exist in autistic society, at least not to the same level that exists in neurotypical society. Autistic people are less likely to lie over 'polite lie' situations and in general due to a cultural disdain for deceit.

Probably. This seems likely. May I add that lying could possibly go right up there with adultery and theft?

---All movies/TV shows will be required to add subtitles for mouthed words. Make that a national law, and make a regulation requiring that the subtitles are in eye dialect to factor in the dialect or whatnot

Contradicts other assertions about a loose federation and pro-anarchy tendencies. National laws will be very difficult in the climate you imagine. They'll probably be reserved for very serious crimes like murder. That said, there probably will be subtitles.

---Reading Autistic People is relatively easier, and harder for neurotypicals due to their wiring. You can likely simply ask them and they will explain their mental dispositions, or give it away freely in discussion with other people. IT is harder to neurotypicals as neurotypicals focus on body language and posturing to a larger level. Many aspies by default stay in a 'mute/neutral' facial expression and rarely change that. That does not give away their facial expressions

Many but not all. Probably two or more styles of body language will be commonly used. Because of this people will be more open to the idea of alternatives. (The idea of a third style when you know two seems less strange than the idea of a second style when you know only one.) Neck-to-groin will be important for figuring out emotions. The hands and face will be used for secondary cues. Voice will be used as well if whoever you're talking to actually uses their voice. Plenty of Aspies do have facial expressions. I don't know why Aspies would be so open about explaining how they feel, though. Are NTs? First-generation immigrants would probably be, but native-born citizens might not be.

--Autistic culture is very anti-hierarchical and factional. Various autistic cliques are formed and it is hard to gain a consensus in the autistic nation. A better term may be to refer to them as a "united tribes" of autism or something similar. There are strong anarchist strains in autistic culture, yet some aspects of the culture might have excessive rules [e.g. ritualized and detailed rituals dealing with public transportation]

Possible. One of many ways it could work out. Might not, though. Public transportation? In what way could that possibly resemble what we would call public transportation? An autistic culture just WOULDN'T create ways to toss complete strangers together in a confined environment. Forget rituals-- it might not exist at all. Small taxi services might spring up, though. Consistency with drivers would allow for familiarity to develop, sufficient to make it a less hellish experience than it might otherwise be.

---The concept of 'personal space' is limited in autistic culture. The distance that autistics and neurotypicals talk to each other is noticeably smaller than the distance neurotypicals from the same culture they immigrated from talk to.

Doubt this very much. You'd BETTER stay out of my bubble. You'd better stay away from me, period. However, explicit physical markers might be used, given how many people would have trouble estimating the distance. But I think coming close to or touching people would be a really big deal, reserved for close friends and family, and sometimes denied even them without any ill will.

---Referring to yourself in the third person is used by a plurality of people in the society. Government officials, politicians and whatnot use that when they are in political discussions, debates and whatnot - partially to avoid narciccism and "neurotypicality"

Might possibly develop. Doesn't seem likely. Doesn't seem unlikely, either.

---Staring at someone or excessively avoiding someone's gaze is not "dishonesty" or "intimidating or provoking a fight" unlike in many neurotypical cultures.

Agree. Actually, with one caveat. Eye contact could possibly be viewed as a sort of fight, and so might be normal among the sort of tough young men who socialize by hitting each other. In that case it might be a sort of staring contest, and would probably not be done quite as casually-- it would probably not happen simultaneously with speech. But staring fixedly at any point would not be odd; the distinction here would be if you follow the person's eyes with yours if they move.

---Any such analogies, or metaphors are not used as much - speaking in Jive or using large amounts of neurotypical slang will not work. By default people use the formal words to describe things, and rarely use NT-based slang. Aspie 'slang' or metaphors etc are often technology or science-based - e.g. referring to a brain as a 'processor' etc etc.

Strongly disagree. Metaphors and analogies are one of the main ways I communicate. Others use them, too, even on the spectrum. http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=496 This is an example of an autistic person using an analogy. I definitely make use of slang as well. Language is rather arbitrary. So long as the meaning is clear and precise, slang and jargon are the same thing to me, and both get used quite like standard language.

---"colored people time", "Filipino Time" or whatever delayed times DO NOT EXIST. If they say they will be there at a certain time, they WILL be at that time, plue or minus 5 minutes at most. The "3 hour delay" does not apply, if you do this you will cause anger as that is a major annoance.

Concur.

I think I'll break this up into two posts. Please await part two.

Still working in Notepad. Are these quotes yours or what?

---Auties may seek the company of other auties for many reasons. Common reasons are wanting to socialise, to develop social skills, to address personal quality of life issues or simply to communicate with each other vocationally.

Essentially a list of the reasons people seek out other people.

---Know your w:MBTI type. Many of the major autistic spectrum sub-groups some people insist on seeing can be attributed to this, and many of the battle lines in conflicts are drawn along their borders.

Not sure about this.

---And although you should never reward bad behaviour, it's best to never over-react.

People write off giving needed help as "rewarding bad behavior" too often.

---Unwritten social rules can be broken into two groups. Ones regulating destructive behaviour, and ones regulating eccentric behaviour. XXX Insert Relationship Building Skills Comment Here XXX The eccentric behaviour rules can usually be dropped in autie social circles, but when the destructive behaviour rules are dropped, things can turn very bad.

The line is less clear. Overall yes... well... no. What's hurtful in one situation isn't the same as what's hurtful in another. What's merely eccentric in one situation may be hurtful in another. Also, some things disgust people because people are crazy, not because the behaviors are inherently disgusting.

---KNOW that the words "mature" and "develop" do not apply to autistic spectrum people the way they apply to non-autistic people. A non-autistic person "develops" and an autistic spectrum person "learns social skills". In the same way, a non-autistic person would have to "learn" in whatever field of interest an autistic spectrum person "develops".

This doesn't even make sense. What definitions are you using for learn and develop? What I do when I absorb the facts of my special interests is something I like to call learning. It's quite similar to how I learn social skills, except easier and more fun. But I'm putting facts into my head either way. I think this is a very strange distinction.

---Separating the "person" from their "behaviour" is a good tool in trying to work out who someone is.

No, it isn't. What clues do you have at your disposal about what kind of person someone is except their behavior?

---If you are lucky enough to be in a successful relationship, be careful what you say and do reguarding it in autie social circles.

Why?

---This cannot be stressed enough. Public displays of affection and innuendo between lovers is a major cause of ill feeling and conflict in autistic spectrum circles.

Ah. I thought this was about what a country of autistics would be like... and in such a place, this wouldn't be true. Anyway, I don't know why anyone would be upset.

---Successfully adapting to an NT world leads to serious quality of life issues for many auties. Putting large amounts of valuable energy into surviving the social status game when there is little to nothing in the way of pay off except promise is depressing. Particularly if one realises that ones effort in life has been largely wasted or misused by others.

Life sucks. No argument here.

---Auties who have experienced NT life often bring their survival behaviours and "baggage" back into the autie world. It is true that this is not helpful, but throwing them out because of this isn't helpful either.

Wouldn't be an issue in an "autie country" if it lasted long enough for a generation to be born there. Would be an issue in the first decade or so.

---Autistic people can "connect" if they have common interests. Outside of that, the communication problems can be just as difficult as between autists and non-autists.

False. At least some if not all autistic people share a workable body language. Most autistics communicate much better with most other autistics on most topics than with NTs. Period.

---The work required by both parties to get to this point can be enough of a mind bender to make it difficult for a person to be able to communicate with their own kind if they make habits of the communication techniques that make this possible.

Indeed. Very sad when this happens. Doomed to a half-existence in the shadows.

---Non-autistic people tend to learn by example and memorise by rote repetition.
Autistic people learn by being able to find accurate visualised representations of the lesson, and gain faith in those visualisations by seeing them work in action.

Overgeneralization. Not all autistic people think in pictures all the time. I do memorize some things by rote repetition. I visualize many things, but not everyone does this, and not everyone who does this is autistic.

---Non-autistic people tend to get all aspects of social interaction 50-99% right all the time.
Autistic people can get aspects 100% right or 200% wrong, yet rarely, if ever will an autistic person be able to achieve 50% of all of them.

Huh what?

---Non-autistic people seem to make a game of judging each other by how close they get to 100% (see section on confidence). This may be at least part of the reason that it is difficult to get explanations out of non-autistic people. It can be seen as an attempt to cheat the game.

An interesting theory. I don't agree.

---Although autistic people seem to be incapable of reading the emotions of others, the emotions they express are VERY readable by others. The confusion others have in reading those emotions are in the fact that the emotions often don't make sense.

FALSE. COMPLETE AND UTTER NONSENSE. Tell me, what emotion am I expressing when I fold my arms over my chest, draw my eyebrows downward and frown? If you guessed calm and comfortable but a bit tired, you'd be right. My emotions are NOT readable to NTs. Further, I am quite capable of reading most other people's emotions most if not all of the time, autistic and NT. The emotions that I'm feeling do make sense.

---This is true in reverse too. Fear and aggression are emotions that are communicated across species, and between autistic and non autistic people. They are "reliable emotions". The relationships between sociopaths and autists, and sociopaths and non-autistics are likely to be worth exploring.

Nope. Not communicated at all. I don't show fear in a way that NTs readily pick up on. Signs of aggression in my native body language are the reverse of those used by NTs; hence, there's a huge amount of misreading that goes on. Our "aggression radar" gives false positives all the time when we try to interact.

Oh, my.

I don't know where to start arguing against the idea that your autistic spies will be moderate-functioning because "Aspies might end up becoming absorbed into NT cultures."

In no particular order:
Asperger's Syndrome = autism without speech delay. Says nothing about "functioning level" or ability to pass as NT or likelihood of forgetting your roots. I'm sick of the idea that people without a speech delay are less autistic than people with a speech delay.

Amount of autisticness is NOT inversely proportional to your ability to function. Hence there's no need for someone moderately able to function to be middle-of-the-road in the amount of autism they help.

Being autistic doesn't mean automatic loyalty to other autistics. Being non-autistic doesn't mean you could never be loyal to a group of autistics. Especially when it's not just in theory but about loyalty to a particular group.


Anyway.

Understanding NT manipulating-people-skills is only useful when interacting with NTs.

I think an utterly restructured idea of what a military is would allow many more autistics to be part of one. It would be necessary for an autistic culture to have a relaxed military. Or even to be divided in two-- one modeled off of traditional armies, with strict rules, devote your life to the service, wear a uniform, wear your hair a certain way, say certain things. And the other would be unofficial. It would offer arms training to everybody, you'd sign up for training, enlistments would last weeks or months after that and you could leave then or sign up to stay on for another period of time, and the same choice when that one ends. It wouldn't have a uniform (maybe a pin or a hat or a ribbon), the government couldn't unilaterally make you stay on longer (screwing with your expectations is unacceptable; Aspies just aren't going to sign up for something like that).

Because the population will be so small, the people available to defend it have to be a huge percent of it. Maybe everyone. So no one would even consider gun control because the entire populace would be armed and ready to fight. Because the entire population would be the military. There'd have to be plans for what to do. But not centralized plans. Maybe centralized plans. But mostly neighborhoods would have their own plans for what to do in case of emergency. That way it wouldn't be plausible for an enemy to just find out the central government's plan and know what they were going to face.

Because in practice, we'd probably always be in danger of war, if not actually in war. Everyone would hate us and we'd be tiny. So we'd probably have a small traditional military, but the whole population would have to be ready to go to war or we'd never last a generation.

All this thread has taught me is that an autistic country would be a sh***y place to live.

You just can't plan situations like this from the top down like that. It doesn't work and just convinces others you're a control freak when you try to make them follow it.