Pictures of an autistic brain scan Vs. NT's?

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SteamPowerDev
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03 Nov 2010, 1:34 am

I have been looking on the web for possible picture comparisons of brain scans between autistic brains and NT's. I know there have been recent studies on this and I was hoping there might be some pictures to go along with it. I think it would be wonderful to hold up a picture of a brain scan of someone with Asperger's and tell people that this is what my brain looks like. Then hold up a picture of a NT's brain scan and say that is what their brain looks like.

Of course I know it's not just a picture of brains, but how the brain reacts to outside stimuli. I think?

Any information would be wonderful.



Chronos
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03 Nov 2010, 1:48 am

At first sight, I don't believe the brains look all that different, which has been one of the perplexing things about autism...that is, if you had two brains in a jar and one was autistic and the other wasn't, I don't think you'd see a difference...generally speaking.

However differences can be observed in activity levels and regions of the brain that react in response to certain stimulus, as well as subtle and not so subtle differences in sizes of certain regions and microscopic matter structures, as well as differences in the changes of the brain that are seen as people age.

Image

http://sfari.org/news/-/asset_publisher ... ith-autism
Image

http://www.pathfinder-brain-spect.net/i ... ons/autism



CockneyRebel
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03 Nov 2010, 3:37 am

But I am healthy.


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SuperApsie
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03 Nov 2010, 5:19 am

The problem is that medial imaging of the brain is still a very primitive technology compared to what is studied: it relies only on the consumption of oxygen of our neurons. So not only there will not be a lot of meaning in the picture, but it will be very incomplete.

The other factors are:
- Chemical transactions are involved
-- There are 9 kinds of inhibitors
-- There are 9 kinds of activators

- Electrical transactions are involved
--Firing patterns

- There is an exchange of matter between neurons
-- Ion channels
-- Gap junctions

- Brain is plastic and changes all the time
-- It require 4H to create new connections at any age

- Neuronal interference is significant
-- Firing does alter adjacent neurons that seem to be idle

- Efficiency optimization makes things even more difficult
-- The more a brain processing route is used, the less energy it uses, the less obvious it is!

I took a picture through my ear though, it's a bit dark, but it looks like this:
Image

:twisted: Fear the aspie brain!


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rmgh
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03 Nov 2010, 5:38 am

CockneyRebel wrote:
But I am healthy.

"Healthy Control

In a clinical study, a person who does not have the disorder or disease being studied. Results from healthy controls are compared to results from the group being studied."
:)



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03 Nov 2010, 5:50 am

SuperApsie wrote:
-- It require 4H to create new connections at any age


What does the H there stand for? Thanks.


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rmgh
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03 Nov 2010, 6:03 am

Moog wrote:
SuperApsie wrote:
-- It require 4H to create new connections at any age


What does the H there stand for? Thanks.

Hours :)



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03 Nov 2010, 6:07 am

rmgh wrote:
Moog wrote:
SuperApsie wrote:
-- It require 4H to create new connections at any age


What does the H there stand for? Thanks.

Hours :)


I thought so, but thought I'd better ask. Thanks rmgh! :)


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cthulukitty
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03 Nov 2010, 8:37 am

At present there is still no known pattern of brain abnormality that is consistent across the autism spectrum, nor are all NT brains the same. Putting a picture of one Aspie's brain next to one NT's brain simply shows you a picture of two individuals. It doesn't do much to tell you about the differences between the two groups. I'm reminded of the brain image advertisements that the US government put out to discourage people from using MDMA, for which they specifically chose two images (one for an MDMA user, one not) that looked as different from each other as possible. Another problem is that on activation images such as fMRI, you're only looking at the brain as it engages in one task at a time. Autistic brains seem to differ from NT brains in a variety of ways, not just one. From what I've read of the scientific literature, it seems like neurologists are constantly proposing yet another area in which activation might be different in autistic brains, and frequently they find that it is. One problem with those studies is that, once again, they only look at one thing at a time. It's wrong to think that one specific area is abnormal in autistic brains; it's more that the entire thing works in a different way.


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03 Nov 2010, 10:05 am

cthulukitty wrote:
At present there is still no known pattern of brain abnormality that is consistent across the autism spectrum, nor are all NT brains the same. Putting a picture of one Aspie's brain next to one NT's brain simply shows you a picture of two individuals. It doesn't do much to tell you about the differences between the two groups. I'm reminded of the brain image advertisements that the US government put out to discourage people from using MDMA, for which they specifically chose two images (one for an MDMA user, one not) that looked as different from each other as possible. Another problem is that on activation images such as fMRI, you're only looking at the brain as it engages in one task at a time. Autistic brains seem to differ from NT brains in a variety of ways, not just one. From what I've read of the scientific literature, it seems like neurologists are constantly proposing yet another area in which activation might be different in autistic brains, and frequently they find that it is. One problem with those studies is that, once again, they only look at one thing at a time. It's wrong to think that one specific area is abnormal in autistic brains; it's more that the entire thing works in a different way.


What is interesting to me is that such differences are being found. I am encouraged since having empirical tools to discover and measure these differences can only serve to improve understanding. But to say any particular finding, especially in such small samples, is diagnostically relevant for autism is reading too much into the conclusion.



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03 Nov 2010, 10:12 am

I've seen a schizophrenics brain under mapping. 8O

I dont really know if Autism has a map yet :pig:


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03 Nov 2010, 10:56 am

Chronos wrote:


The study of the on reward centre of the brain was interesting. They imbeded the image so it did not show directly:
Image

Although I question wither showing a picture of a gold coin is an effective measure of response to monetary reward. The referenced another study using a game where people got a reward they could actually redeem for something and showed the average ASD response was higher than the control. I just have a mental image of the AS kids getting a picture of a gold coin, turning to the test coordinator "excuse me, is this useful in some way?"

I also liked this:

Quote:
Regardless of what naturally motivates children with autism, they can be taught to value social rewards through clever behavioral interventions, says Geraldine Dawson, chief science officer with Autism Speaks, who was not involved with the study.


To my mind it just seems like a great summary of their viewpoint



richardbenson
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03 Nov 2010, 12:49 pm

If i was in a test and somebody handed me a gold coin i wouldnt know what to think about it either. however, if i was to buy a gold coin, i would know exactely what it was and would bering me great joy :pig:


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Chronos
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03 Nov 2010, 3:02 pm

richardbenson wrote:
If i was in a test and somebody handed me a gold coin i wouldnt know what to think about it either. however, if i was to buy a gold coin, i would know exactely what it was and would bering me great joy :pig:


I would just think "Yeah! I have a gold coin!"



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03 Nov 2010, 3:14 pm

SteamPowerDev wrote:
I have been looking on the web for possible picture comparisons of brain scans between autistic brains and NT's. I know there have been recent studies on this and I was hoping there might be some pictures to go along with it. I think it would be wonderful to hold up a picture of a brain scan of someone with Asperger's and tell people that this is what my brain looks like. Then hold up a picture of a NT's brain scan and say that is what their brain looks like.

Of course I know it's not just a picture of brains, but how the brain reacts to outside stimuli. I think?

Any information would be wonderful.


do NTs have brains? 8O :mrgreen:



wavefreak58
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03 Nov 2010, 3:17 pm

aspi-rant wrote:

do NTs have brains? 8O :mrgreen:


Yeah, but they have to give them back when they're done using them.