Aspergers and Religion

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disneyhound
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20 Aug 2006, 10:52 am

edgewaters wrote:

Science isn't really about absolute truths. It's about models that predict the phenomena around us.

I think you would have many scientists rebutting that statement; yet I agree. Many models utilize specific historic data to predict. And most weather forecasts are no more accurate three days out than flipping a coin; yet the Global Warming concept is accepted as absolute truth by many in the scientific community. But, is the earth in a natural warming 50,000 year cycle?

There is 60 sceonds in a minute, 2 plus 2 is always equal to 4, and yes we all will die someday. I can accept these truths, absolute. Yet religion, FSM, or Michael Jackson is not an alien, difficult to "believe"...

Tails
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20 Aug 2006, 11:06 am

disneyhound wrote:

Yet religion, FSM, or Michael Jackson is not an alien, difficult to "believe"...

That last one, particularly. :wink:

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krex
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20 Aug 2006, 11:51 am

Although I have alot of negativity towards "organized " religion I have often had a "sense" of spirituality...I have never understand how "some thing" could have a power that goes beyong its physical being....for me that is usually something in nature...cats(animals in general),moss,a tree,a rock,animal skulls,certain plants...the closes analogy is the feeling I use to get on LSD...that I could see the webbing connecting myself to these objects and to the universe and to "God"...I have had that feeling since childhood about nature(perhaps a pagan memmory)...thee things just seem to glow and make me feel "warm" inside...it is hard to explain...maybe it is an evolutionary characteristics that people have naturally, so that they respect their physical environment and there for dont do things to destroy it(like many native people who believe there is a "spirit" inside all things)This feels real to me.I dont mean to come off all "hippy-dippy" but when I look at my cats...I feel like they are "miricles" and feel blessed that I can actually feel so much "love" for them...They are just made so perfect!!!Its really hard to put into words but some things just touch me deeper then seems "logical" and goes beyond their natural "usefullness" as "things"...

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Musical_Lottie
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20 Aug 2006, 11:52 am

Orvaskesi wrote:

Tails wrote:

lastwish wrote:

In someway I wish I was a Christian but my mind is too argumentative to surrender to something that is inherently flawed and illogical..

*Nods* That's me to a T. I simply cannot be religious, because it's just too... illogical. I'm just the kind of person who analyses everything and needs solid proof. I've been told I'm _too_ logical in my thinking, but that's just the way I am. To me, believing in God is no more rational than believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster (and I affiliate with FSM because the ironic sentiment is super). There are so many fallacies, so many contradictions, so much that _doesn't make sense_ in the Bible and in the belief in God... I just can't bring myself to look at it seriously at all. I do not discount the possibility of a higher being (or beings) completely - after all, the notion of the Universe coming from nothing, or from two stray particles, is just as fantastical as believing a God created it (and where did this God comes from anyway?

He's been around forever? Well, so could the Universe have been, then, so why does God have to have created it?). But I certainly do not believe in any specific God, and consider myself to be athiest, even if a tiny part of me remains agnostic about 'higher powers' of any sort.

Yes, well, but the Big Bang has been proven as solidly as anything can be in science, so we pretty much _know_ that the Universe hasn't been around forever. The thing is that it does seem to be the case that time emerged only _with_ the Big Bang, or emerged from a dimension from space "after" the Big Bang. And cause/effect relationships are necessarily located in time. Which means that on the one hand, we cannot sensibly say that the Big Bang/Universe has been caused by anything. In the normal meaning of causation, that is. On the other hand, it means that the "who caused God?" objection to religion is unsensible.

I think our metaphors lead us astray here. We're so used to thinking about stuff in terms of this thing causing that thing to happen - with space and time being a given. When speaking about the Universe, or God, all that falls to pieces.

I think that also means that the very traditional, dogmatic idea of Creation (God creating everything in more or less exactly six days) makes no sense. I like to think in terms of the Universe being a property of God, or perhaps under some kind of continuous process of creation.

But then, the whole question-and-answer game "How did the Universe come about? God." fails as a justification of religion. Why would anyone think that God exists? My provisional answer would be that the Universe is understandable, rational, and in some ways very beautiful - and that this points to the existence of an underlying entity that is rational and beautiful.

Re the Big Bang. Well, the Scriptures tell us that the Universe was created by Jehovah. But we're not told *how* - there may well have been a Big Bang, but if so I believe it would have been directed by Jehovah so that things turned out as perfectly as they did. I cannot, however, believe that a Big Bang happened without orchestration - there's too much that could have gone wrong. For example, the tilt on the Earth's axis, the distance of us from the Sun, the composition of the atmosphere ... any tiny change in those or similar respects would have resulted in just another uninhabitable planet. So I believe that any Big Bang must have been orchestrated by Jehovah for it to work as perfectly as it did.

Also, re science - there's science, and there's science. And probably other science too. The thing is, there should be a distinction between theoretical science, and the type of science that deals with things that can be solidly proved - such as the human skeleton, ie it exists and this is how it works. Not sure what any term for it would be though.

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lastwish
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20 Aug 2006, 4:45 pm

does anyone ever wonder.. what caused *anything* to exist, what caused the big bang to exist?

this has both religion and science stuff cause saying god just existed and made everything does not explain how god came into existence.

the big question is why does anything exist, why does energy exist why does space exist..

well what i am trying to say is.. religion and science both only answer a small piece of a infinitely large puzzle..

Last edited by lastwish on 20 Aug 2006, 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AmyRose
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20 Aug 2006, 4:49 pm

I'm Catholic. Raised a Catholic, and a Catholic I remain.

TigerFire
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20 Aug 2006, 9:36 pm

waterdogs wrote:

i dont think anyone under the age of 18 should be allowed in churches. it just messes with your mind, i went to a baptist church when i was little and the pastor talked only about the end of the age and hell. s**t scared the f*** out of me, and has greatly contributed to my fear of dying, and worrying about weather or not ill make it into heaven.

You know I think you are really judging to harashly on chruchs. Church doesn't mess with anyones head. For once why did you got to a church at all? Actually you know the staticks are about children under the age of 18 it says that most of those kids won't recieve Jesus Christ in their life. Those who are older won't because they're so heart hardened that they won't go to church at all. You only attended a church for what ten or so months? Fear over came you because rejection of Jesus Christ when he give you a invite to join in my and all Christians family. No please no need to argue with me because if you do I will possibly end up having Alex to come in and shut us both up.

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TigerFire
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20 Aug 2006, 10:06 pm

krex wrote:

I was adopted by Christian Scientist when I was 5 and I loved the religion...It is a really odd religion and intelectually stimulating...they dont have picture of jesus on the cross or talk about hell and damnation.There is no babtism or confessions.Up until 16, there was no "church service" we went to "sunday school" groups divided by age and you would sit in small groups and just talk about the meaning of certain stories in the Bible or what Jesus was trying to teach people and how it applied to your daily life.It was rreally interesting to me.They didnt teach that Jesus was the "Son of God" any more then anyone else....God created everyone so we were all children of God and Jesus was just more highly "evolved" but we could all evolve....I think there was alot of "eastern philosophy" in the religion.They believed that all physical things were an illussion ...a faulty copy of its "spiritual" and perfect counter part...the goal of life was to be able to see behind the illussion to the spiritual reality of the object.When you could do that...and it took several life times and much hard work...you would eventially evolve out of your physical being into a spiritual perfection.....For a person who was disgusted by the world in general and my life in perticular...this was a pretty tempting prospect.I made it my goal to try and "evolve" as soon as possible by being the best person I could be...This "goody-too-shoes" attempt just made me more of a target for my peers to mock...but I turned the other cheek...around 16 I was so depressed,angry that I gave up on the whole thing...I was old enough to see the hypocrisy of those who claimed to be "christians" and it was really disappointing....

They say a cynic is an optomist who has been hurt or disappointed one to many times...perhaps that applies to me...intelectually I can not reconcile myself to all the contridictions in the bible or the brutal history of christianity....I can not forget the whitch burnings,the crusades,the inquistions,the genocide of native populations(america,south america,etc)I know there are Christians who have done good works(mother Teresa)but so did Gondi....that was the individual not the church.

Hmm let me put out some things that are you twisting your beliefs out Christiany and the actual fact. Yes do you know what that hypocrisy is called in some churchs? Playing Church. Yes I've seen it my self seeing other so called Christians doing the same things as the world. Lieing cheating stealing all that. You haven't been around real Christians you can't just judge a book by its cover. I mean I heard of some people in my chruch that claim to be stricked honest to God Bible reading old men and woman but outsiders have seen them drinking and crusing up a storm. Honestly what happened in the past really doesn't matter. Those people that you have read about were either believing that they were lead by God to do these things but actually they weren't all following God and letting him take control. If he did all that genocide of Native Americans, which in sense our diseases and brutal human fear killed them. Native Americans were in the world's eyes savages and they needed to be killed. Not all of these so called Christians killed these indians. There aren't any contriditions in the Bible. You know why it appears that way because the Bible in it self is a history book. All does things listed in the Bible happened. If you would go to a liberal news studio and looked deep into all the facts and figures of Christianty you would see that Jesus actually lived and lot of people would have history about Jesus not just from the Bible from they elders who got this news that Jesus lived and died and rose again on the thrid day. Now to you being rised by a Christian Scientist did things to your head screwed your mind up to believe all those lies. Christian Scientists Are Not part of Christianty! Some say it is like Mormons but actually they are just cults. Those who are taking the Bible out of Context are cultists.

I wish to have no arguement over this because I fear if I did that my obessive nature would make this a knock down dragout fight. Sorry that this ofended you but you know me.

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krex
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20 Aug 2006, 10:23 pm

Tigerfire...dont worry about offending me...I am use to people who call themselves Christians not caring about other peoples beliefs and feelings...it's pretty much what I expect from some groups of them...ie..the not very bright, completly brainwashed ones who did little but regertitate the retoretic they have been feed every Sunday.I doubt you know anythin about Christian Science other then what some one in your church has told you...."they are a cult"....I hope you will eventually learn to think for yourself but I know that is more then everyone is capable of doing...some folks just need to belong to a group who can define their reality for them...It can be so painful to have to do research outside your current belief system and question the validity of those beliefs...Dont feel bad...most of the world believes as you do....that they are right and everyone else is wrong...of course, not all of them have the audacity of those Christians who condemn "nonbelievers" to eternal hell...how compassionate!! !

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TigerFire
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21 Aug 2006, 8:10 am

Mork wrote:

waterdogs wrote:

i dont think anyone under the age of 18 should be allowed in churches. it just messes with your mind.

How can young children understand any of it when I don't.

I started going to church to see what it was all about, but found it hard to understand. The story of god, Jesus & the bible seems irrelevant to me.

It's not a story of God. The Bible Jesus and God have one thing in common. You can't understand more about church and God when you only go once?

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TigerFire
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21 Aug 2006, 8:18 am

edgewaters wrote:

Veresae wrote:

From what I can tell, aspies fall into one of two camps in regards to religion: they either disregard it and see it to be total bull (sometimes to the point of being quite intensely against anyone else believing religion as well), or they become totally obsessed with it to the point where it's one of their special interests. While I'm sure there's some that fall somewhere inbetween, these seem to be the minority.

I'm not one or the other, and I'm not inbetween ... I'm both!! !

I'm an atheist - but the history and origins of religion fascinate me deeply. I really get into religion, but more like a historian or anthropologist would, rather than a believer.

You can't be both atheist. As an Atheist you know that you don't believe in anything but you say you're into religion obession. You can't do both. I'm not fussing at you but really I'm confused.

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TigerFire
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21 Aug 2006, 8:29 am

disneyhound wrote:

lastwish wrote:

how can we sustain a relationship with an all powerfull immortal being if we can hardly have one with a mortal human

Great question, I share the sentiment. However; I have never been able to take the step to "religion is bull". How does anyone know for sure, one way or the other, how can an anyone be so certain; is that Aspie?

You two are truely taking it way out of context. Read the Bible is how you know if its true or not. All things in the Bible actually happened. Its not just a book.

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lastwish
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21 Aug 2006, 8:54 am

TigerFire wrote:

disneyhound wrote:

lastwish wrote:

how can we sustain a relationship with an all powerfull immortal being if we can hardly have one with a mortal human

You two are truely taking it way out of context. Read the Bible is how you know if its true or not. All things in the Bible actually happened. Its not just a book.

but what about the dinosaurs..

and isnt the bible clearly sexist, stating that the woman were the ones to betray humanity... how did noa build an arc to contain 2 of every animal on earth? the boat would have to be 100s of kms wide.

the list goes on..

so much of the bible is simply impossible.

TigerFire
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21 Aug 2006, 8:59 am

krex wrote:

Actually I am thinking for my self. I'm not under some magical spell of Christainty. Because there is none. All of it is the truth. I think you were the one that was brainwashed. "THEY ARE A CULT" Yes they are no one actually has told me that from church I learned that one my self. There is actually a book of cults that have been written and Christian Scientists is one of them. Actually researching into other things is a fear because I'm afriad that I will be brainwashed to believe in the other things. No I'm going to reasearch. I take that "eventually learn to think for your self" as an insult. Christians haven't been brainwashed in your eyes they have but none have. They became Christians willingly. How stupid do you think we Christians are? Not all Christians condemn nonbelievers like you say they do. You've met the wrong type of Christians the so called Christains the ones playing church. Not all folks need to belong to a group. You're speaking just like a know it all Scientist that you were raised to be.

Well that's all from me.

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TigerFire
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21 Aug 2006, 9:02 am

lastwish wrote:

TigerFire wrote:

disneyhound wrote:

lastwish wrote:

how can we sustain a relationship with an all powerfull immortal being if we can hardly have one with a mortal human

You two are truely taking it way out of context. Read the Bible is how you know if its true or not. All things in the Bible actually happened. Its not just a book.

Yet nothing with God is impossible.

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TigerFire
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21 Aug 2006, 9:04 am

If I've hurt anyone feelings just know that I didn't mean it I just get really obessed in being a critic. Sorry.

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