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DeoxysRibonuke
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11 Feb 2012, 2:31 am

This semester, I'm taking a class in Sociology which seems to be completely changing my viewpoint of the world. In it, I learned of a theory called "Symbolic Interactionism", which suggests that humans interact through a meaning of shared, arbitrary symbols in order to communicate. Examples of these 'symbols' include what people on the autism spectrum are classified as having difficulty: hand-shaking, metaphors and idioms, body language, etc.

This leads me to ask those who AREN'T autistic/aspergers...how IS it that these social skills are normally learned and conformed to growing up? How is it that non-autistic people instinctively learn what other people mean when they say certain things? I mean, this is a LEARNING process, right? But then how is it that non-autistic people are able to comfortably conform to these expectations?

In short...what IS the difference in understanding? It's like...people with autism/aspergers can understand aspects of socialization (symbolic interactionism) in theory, but for some reason it doesn't come out in smoothly in practice. What IS it that makes non-autistic people behave more 'smoothly' in society?

((I think this is an implied rule, but please no flaming or prejudice; I would like an intellectual discussion here, not an editorial or rant about conspiracy theories and such. Thank you. ^^))


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CosTransform
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11 Feb 2012, 10:26 am

It might be that these "symbols" doesn't make sense for aspies and thus won't be added to the behavior pattern?

IF that's the case then, one might ask why it should make sense intuitively.



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11 Feb 2012, 10:58 am

When people talk about "socal skills" or that people with autism lack them, I am mystified by what they actualy mean by "social skills".


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DeoxysRibonuke
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11 Feb 2012, 1:49 pm

CosTransform wrote:
It might be that these "symbols" doesn't make sense for aspies and thus won't be added to the behavior pattern?

IF that's the case then, one might ask why it should make sense intuitively.


MagicMeerkat wrote:
When people talk about "socal skills" or that people with autism lack them, I am mystified by what they actualy mean by "social skills".


My point exactly, guys! Dx

HOW is it that people magically figure out that "Oh, they don't mean that I should literally 'toe the line'"? Does it all come down to body language?


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CosTransform
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11 Feb 2012, 2:01 pm

NT:s seems to have less inclinations too lie, so it might affect the learning modus. In that the message being a part lie is part of the message so to say.



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11 Feb 2012, 3:35 pm

CosTransform wrote:
It might be that these "symbols" doesn't make sense for aspies and thus won't be added to the behavior pattern?

IF that's the case then, one might ask why it should make sense intuitively.


I have a hypothesis that a lot of difficulty with higher-functioning spectrumites is due to extreme fusion between the logic and motivation to act pathways, and that this isn't often even a conscious process.


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11 Feb 2012, 3:43 pm

DeoxysRibonuke wrote:
This semester, I'm taking a class in Sociology which seems to be completely changing my viewpoint of the world. In it, I learned of a theory called "Symbolic Interactionism", which suggests that humans interact through a meaning of shared, arbitrary symbols in order to communicate. Examples of these 'symbols' include what people on the autism spectrum are classified as having difficulty: hand-shaking, metaphors and idioms, body language, etc.

This leads me to ask those who AREN'T autistic/aspergers...how IS it that these social skills are normally learned and conformed to growing up? How is it that non-autistic people instinctively learn what other people mean when they say certain things? I mean, this is a LEARNING process, right? But then how is it that non-autistic people are able to comfortably conform to these expectations?

In short...what IS the difference in understanding? It's like...people with autism/aspergers can understand aspects of socialization (symbolic interactionism) in theory, but for some reason it doesn't come out in smoothly in practice. What IS it that makes non-autistic people behave more 'smoothly' in society?

((I think this is an implied rule, but please no flaming or prejudice; I would like an intellectual discussion here, not an editorial or rant about conspiracy theories and such. Thank you. ^^))



One could travel abroad (say to China) and not speak the native tongue and still communicate using symbols and interpreted body signing and using "body language." It's a universal language.

It's an entirely non- intellectual process that allows you to feel or read another persons' state of mind or 'what's in there at that moment in time.'

You learn the non-verbal like you learn the verbal. One does not consciously learn to talk. It just happens. As toddlers we don't rehearse the words in our heads and reflect when we utter our first words. Verbal is done instinctively, and likewise so is the non-verbal. It's a language of knowing or feeling the sense of it without internal words. You 'know the syntax' by a subconscious confirmation of a non-verbal 'feeling language.'



CosTransform
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11 Feb 2012, 3:51 pm

Mdyar wrote:
One does not consciously learn to talk. It just happens.


There's always a process behind "what just happens" regardless if one is aware of it.

How it works is however quite interesting. And it relates to other areas as well.



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11 Feb 2012, 4:18 pm

Wonder if this means that, for us, learning social skills is much like an adult learning a foreign language? I have to consciously think about what every word in English translates to in Spanish, there's lots of memorization involved, and I find it very difficult to go from the picture or concept directly to Spanish. My link between that and English is too strong.


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11 Feb 2012, 5:21 pm

CosTransform wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
One does not consciously learn to talk. It just happens.


There's always a process behind "what just happens" regardless if one is aware of it.

How it works is however quite interesting. And it relates to other areas as well.


There is indeed a process but NT adults won't have memory of it (I don't) because it happens in toddlerhood, alongside learning to talk as Mydar said. The people who can explain the details of the process are early childhood developmental specialists. They are the ones who hover over toddlers, noting when and how they learn new things. A key difference between NT toddlers and AS toddlers is that NT toddlers are driven to focus on and imitate the people around them. AS toddlers are more interested in the non-human elements of the enviroment. I think that the imitation of the actions precedes knowing what those actions mean. You can see parents coaching their toddlers in specific actions (like waving) and the toddlers will imitate this probably before they understand what the action means.



DeoxysRibonuke
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11 Feb 2012, 5:23 pm

Mdyar wrote:
One could travel abroad (say to China) and not speak the native tongue and still communicate using symbols and interpreted body signing and using "body language." It's a universal language.

It's an entirely non- intellectual process that allows you to feel or read another persons' state of mind or 'what's in there at that moment in time.'

You learn the non-verbal like you learn the verbal. One does not consciously learn to talk. It just happens. As toddlers we don't rehearse the words in our heads and reflect when we utter our first words. Verbal is done instinctively, and likewise so is the non-verbal. It's a language of knowing or feeling the sense of it without internal words. You 'know the syntax' by a subconscious confirmation of a non-verbal 'feeling language.'


That did occur to me. It makes sense, since learning metaphors and such can be made easier if the person is reading the other person's body language to perceive that they are merely jesting and are not actually criticizing them.

I guess it could be equated to a non-verbal dyslexia? =\ I feel like I can read body language just fine, but it sometimes takes me a while to react because I have to process it (like, as Comp_Geek_573 said, speaking or understanding a different language)


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Mdyar
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11 Feb 2012, 5:49 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAfWfsop1e0
Yep. In a nutshell, Social Dyslexia.

(Though, ( according to board) Asperger's many times means more, e.g. self care problems and sensory processing, etc.)



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11 Feb 2012, 5:49 pm

DeoxysRibonuke wrote:
...how IS it that these social skills are normally learned and conformed to growing up? How is it that non-autistic people instinctively learn what other people mean when they say certain things? I mean, this is a LEARNING process, right?


How do cats learn to flatten their ears and hiss when threatened? It is a combination of pure instinct and so-called prepared learning (long-term potentiation of readily existing synaptic connections). The same goes for the nonverbal communication of neurotypical Homo sapiens. Humans are animals. Autistic human animals simply lack some instincts / neural connections for all the nonverbal snarling, grimacing and posturing, as well as the meaningless little warbles that NTs utter (oh, hm, aha etc.) to provide a talking conspecific with emotional feedback.



CosTransform
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11 Feb 2012, 7:03 pm

A guess, body language -lexia causes processing of things and environment over people?

Then, is it lack of interest or lack of being able to process it?



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11 Feb 2012, 7:34 pm

CosTransform wrote:
A guess, body language -lexia causes processing of things and environment over people?


I don't believe so. I don't have the usual people interest, but acquired the non-verbal language. I'm a thing/science/engineer oriented man.
It's possible that introverts are near the broader autism phenotypes thus making these choices.

I'm not sure if I'm following this here, but the choice to recognize the non-verbal is the same choice to recognize the verbal. All of it is hidden and instinctual, hence non-choice.



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11 Feb 2012, 7:44 pm

To me, the arbitrary symbols have always felt 'optional'. Once I realised what they were.

Interesting thread. I hope to learn a lot from it.

I feel we still pick up on things but not the very important things (according to social ettiquite). It's like how we can remember a lot of details but not the overall picture.

I was actually in a thread talking about how people with ADHD have little control over both memory and actions. Maybe our brains are processing so much (sensory wise) that it can't summarise what is the most important part to remember? And perhaps the social part of our brain is even more under active than in ADHD.


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