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mrsmith
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04 Jul 2011, 3:42 pm

80% of ASD individuals are supposed to be NVLD.

What are the numbers the other way around, from NVLD diagnosis, the significant point difference, or given IQ profile?

The prevalence numbers I have seen are the same, so it should be similar (80% of NVLD having ASD).

Though there are supposedly relatively more women having NVLD than ASD, so a high proportion of NVLD men are ASD?

Is it the same relationship at ll IQ levels?
(NVLD representing fundamental Autisticness, and high IQ somewhat compensating, making people less ASD?)



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04 Jul 2011, 3:47 pm

mrsmith wrote:
(NVLD representing fundamental Autisticness, and high IQ somewhat compensating, making people less ASD?)


Could you explain what you mean by the first statement?

As for the second, it seems to me that IQ doesn't make people less ASD, but perhaps if you explained that part better I might understand what you mean?

I'm not trying to argue with you. I simply want to understand what you are saying.



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04 Jul 2011, 7:34 pm

The difference between non-verbal learning disorder and Asperger's Syndrome is blurry at best, and possibly only a matter of semantics.

Hans Asperger described what is essentially considered non-verbal learning disorder today. When the DSM-IV was compiled, for some reason non-verbal learning disorder, was defined essentially the same as AS was defined by Hans Asperger, without special interests, and Asperger's Syndrome was defined essentially the same as non-verbal learning disorder, with special interests and without coordination issues.

Those with non-verbal learning disorder generally have high scatter on IQ tests such that they have high verbal IQ's and low performance IQ's, and thus, this used to be the profile for those with AS as well, where conversely, those with HFA had high performance IQ's and low verbal IQs. With the plasticity of current diagnostic standards and procedures, diagnosis has become...well..muddled and this has been expressed as a shift in scatter profiles such that more recent studies have not found this desparity between those with AS and those with HFA.

The impending redefinition of AS under ASD in the DSM-V seeks to consolidate diagnosis for this reason however this just seems like it's more of the same sloppyness and I personally feel they should rely on advances in brain imaging to better define and differentiate disorder....

But what do I know? My field only follows the scientific method, not any of this abracadabra because I say so stuff that psych field does.



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04 Jul 2011, 11:02 pm

In the psychology book I am reading right now, which highlights some of the differences between Aspergers and classic Autism, it says that the vast majority of people with Aspergers also qualify for a diagnosis of NVLD. Most people with classic autism do not. I'll try and find more information by actually looking in the book in anyone is interested (right now, just going from memory). I think that is interesting. Some parts of NVLD apply to me, but I don't actually qualify for a diagnosis of NVLD (and I have classic autism).

I don't know what the numbers are the other way around, but I would say a large majority of NVLD could also be considered to be on the spectrum as well. As said, there is not a huge difference between the two, and in that book it is said the label you get for diagnosis often depends on which type of professional is doing the assessment (as in, the person usually qualifies for both, but is given the label the professional prefers to use).

I haven't heard of the gender ratios for NVLD before, so I really don't know about that. Where did you find that information?

I really don't agree that high IQ makes people seem less autistic. Autism is not really about intelligence but about social functioning, communication, etc. You can be impaired in those areas and be very autistic and still have a high IQ. Likewise, there are lots of non-autistic people out there who are very social, no autistic qualities, and have a low IQ. IQ does not accurately measure "autisticness".


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05 Jul 2011, 12:56 am

mrsmith wrote:
80% of ASD individuals are supposed to be NVLD.

What are the numbers the other way around, from NVLD diagnosis, the significant point difference, or given IQ profile?

The prevalence numbers I have seen are the same, so it should be similar (80% of NVLD having ASD).

Though there are supposedly relatively more women having NVLD than ASD, so a high proportion of NVLD men are ASD?

Is it the same relationship at ll IQ levels?
(NVLD representing fundamental Autisticness, and high IQ somewhat compensating, making people less ASD?)



This is not accurate. Perhaps you meant to say that 80% of those with ASPERGER'S SYNDROME are supposed to exhibit the primary characteristics of NVLD.

Even still.....the percentage you offered is based on only one (or maybe a few more...not sure about that) study and i've read other studies which state
that NVLD characteristics are present in only around 30% of those with AS.

There is no doubt that NVLD and AS are similar, if not identical, disorders though in terms of their clinical presentations and perhaps their etiologies as well.

As for people with ASD other than Asperger's...a good number exhibit cognitive assets and deficits which seem to be the opposite of those you usually see in NVLD individuals (like me :) ) Now there are some who probably do have NVLD traits to one degree or another, but i'd the % of *non-Asperger's ASD* folks who fit the typical NVLD *profile* is not even close to the % of those with Asperger's who meet the NVLD criteria.


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05 Jul 2011, 1:08 am

littlelily613 wrote:
I really don't agree that high IQ makes people seem less autistic. Autism is not really about intelligence but about social functioning, communication, etc. You can be impaired in those areas and be very autistic and still have a high IQ. Likewise, there are lots of non-autistic people out there who are very social, no autistic qualities, and have a low IQ. IQ does not accurately measure "autisticness".


Is the book you mentioned Asperger Syndrome by Klin, Volkmar, and Sparrow?

Also, thanks for that paragraph above. I was struggling to put this into words, and failed (hence my question).



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05 Jul 2011, 11:23 am

It seems to me that there's probably two different learning styles which are both seen in many autistics, but are kind of exact opposites.

NVLD is one of them. The other is the visuospatial thinker style with much better nonverbal than verbal skills, which is associated with the classic Block Design peak.

On average, NVLD autistics come across as higher functioning, because one of our big ways of estimating functioning is from language skills, which is a strength in NVLD and a weakness in visuospatial thinkers.

There are also people with NVLD who aren't autistic. The difference is that they're sociable and don't have intense interests or dislike of change, and they tend to have fewer sensory differences as well. But the distinction is pretty fuzzy.



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05 Jul 2011, 2:10 pm

Ettina wrote:
There are also people with NVLD who aren't autistic. The difference is that they're sociable and don't have intense interests or dislike of change, and they tend to have fewer sensory differences as well. But the distinction is pretty fuzzy.


I know someone who has NVLD but is not autistic and he is about as sociable as I am, possibly less.



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05 Jul 2011, 8:40 pm

Verdandi wrote:
littlelily613 wrote:
I really don't agree that high IQ makes people seem less autistic. Autism is not really about intelligence but about social functioning, communication, etc. You can be impaired in those areas and be very autistic and still have a high IQ. Likewise, there are lots of non-autistic people out there who are very social, no autistic qualities, and have a low IQ. IQ does not accurately measure "autisticness".


Is the book you mentioned Asperger Syndrome by Klin, Volkmar, and Sparrow?

Also, thanks for that paragraph above. I was struggling to put this into words, and failed (hence my question).


Yes, that's the book! Have you read it before?


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05 Jul 2011, 8:43 pm

littlelily613 wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
littlelily613 wrote:
I really don't agree that high IQ makes people seem less autistic. Autism is not really about intelligence but about social functioning, communication, etc. You can be impaired in those areas and be very autistic and still have a high IQ. Likewise, there are lots of non-autistic people out there who are very social, no autistic qualities, and have a low IQ. IQ does not accurately measure "autisticness".


Is the book you mentioned Asperger Syndrome by Klin, Volkmar, and Sparrow?

Also, thanks for that paragraph above. I was struggling to put this into words, and failed (hence my question).


Yes, that's the book! Have you read it before?


I'm in the process of reading it right now - I had to find a copy after you mentioned it in another thread. I sort of hoped that was the actual book you meant since you didn't mention authors at the time.



littlelily613
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05 Jul 2011, 8:48 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Ettina wrote:
There are also people with NVLD who aren't autistic. The difference is that they're sociable and don't have intense interests or dislike of change, and they tend to have fewer sensory differences as well. But the distinction is pretty fuzzy.


I know someone who has NVLD but is not autistic and he is about as sociable as I am, possibly less.


I know they can be two separate labels, but I still have trouble distinguishing between the two. How does he NOT have an ASD? I can see how people can have autism and not nvld, but I have trouble seeing it the other way around even though I know it happens. What characteristics does he have that make him have nvld but not an asd? I find that so confusing! :?


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05 Jul 2011, 8:50 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I'm in the process of reading it right now - I had to find a copy after you mentioned it in another thread. I sort of hoped that was the actual book you meant since you didn't mention authors at the time.


I love the book! Unfortunately I am not reading it very quickly because I am also in school right now and have other readings, but I have found it so informative so far. Can't wait to read more of it. Hope you are liking it as well!


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05 Jul 2011, 8:59 pm

Do people with NVLD but not AS have intuitive theory of mind?



Last edited by btbnnyr on 05 Jul 2011, 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ettina
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05 Jul 2011, 9:00 pm

Quote:
I really don't agree that high IQ makes people seem less autistic. Autism is not really about intelligence but about social functioning, communication, etc. You can be impaired in those areas and be very autistic and still have a high IQ. Likewise, there are lots of non-autistic people out there who are very social, no autistic qualities, and have a low IQ.


I'd say among autistic people (obviously there's plenty of non-autistics at every IQ level) low IQ and severe autism tend to go together for two reasons. First, it's harder to test a lower functioning autistic person, so it's easy to underestimate their IQ. Secondly, if an autistic person has a low IQ, it makes it harder for them to compensate for their autistic-related difficulties.



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05 Jul 2011, 9:12 pm

Ettina wrote:
Quote:
I really don't agree that high IQ makes people seem less autistic. Autism is not really about intelligence but about social functioning, communication, etc. You can be impaired in those areas and be very autistic and still have a high IQ. Likewise, there are lots of non-autistic people out there who are very social, no autistic qualities, and have a low IQ.


I'd say among autistic people (obviously there's plenty of non-autistics at every IQ level) low IQ and severe autism tend to go together for two reasons. First, it's harder to test a lower functioning autistic person, so it's easy to underestimate their IQ. Secondly, if an autistic person has a low IQ, it makes it harder for them to compensate for their autistic-related difficulties.


Yes, but that would lead me back to my comment that it is not about intelligence. There are "low-functioning" autistic individuals that have been labelled as mentally retarded yet, once they learn how to communicate, are actually far more intelligent than anyone has ever realized. Take Carly Fleischmann. She was diagnosed with severe autism and mental retardation. She will likely never talk, but now that she has learned how to type, people can see how amazingly intelligent she really is.

Also, back to my other point: there are people out there with high IQs who are not autistic and those with low IQs who are. Likewise there are people out there who high IQs who ARE autistic and those with low IQs who are not. IQ does not make one autistic or not. Also, autism does not define a person's intelligence or necessarily a person's IQ (I have classic autism, am "high-functioning" but still severe, and I have an above average IQ)


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05 Jul 2011, 9:39 pm

littlelily613 wrote:
I know they can be two separate labels, but I still have trouble distinguishing between the two. How does he NOT have an ASD? I can see how people can have autism and not nvld, but I have trouble seeing it the other way around even though I know it happens. What characteristics does he have that make him have nvld but not an asd? I find that so confusing! :?


This paper may help:

http://www.nldline.com/yvonna.htm

He doesn't have any sensory sensitivities, special interests, or repetitive/stereotyped behaviors. He fits the social criteria for AS easily, but not the other part.