Theory of mind/sense of self

Post Reply New Topic

How old were you when you developed TOM, or the concept that you were separate, had separate thoughts and experiences, from other people and things?

I distinctly remember coming out of a sort of fog when I was about 10, and it beginning to click. As far as really getting it, well, we're working on that still.

For as long as I can remember, I've always known that other people could have different thoughts and feelings than me. Do I understand their thoughts and feelings? Not always, but I know they exist.

As far as I can remember I never thought other human beings were non-sentient objects.

Well, I know they're not objects... sometimes (although at times I treat them as if they are).

A good example of my TOM issues is this. The cat bites me awake all night. So the other night, I ate a snack so she wouldn't get hungry and wake me up.

Gah.

Yeah, I don't do things like that. Maybe as a kid I did, but (now) I obviously have some ability to emulate another mind.

Hmmm, but you now have the ToM to understand what happened here. I'd assume this wouldn't happen again under these exact conditions again? Is this example a repeat, as in happening again but maybe in a slightly different context.... a central coherence problem?

I understood it when I typed it that same night. I seem to be able to process a LOT more when I type than when I actually... live. I'm kind of on the fence, where I can see both how it makes sense and how it doesn't at the same time...

There are quite a few things I can understand better when I type out that is not very easy to access in real time. I know for example that my mother didn't know the route I usually took to my therapist's (rides from others) office, but when she made a wrong turn the first thing I said was "take the usual route!"

I know logically she couldn't know "the usual route" but in the moment a lot of that awareness and knowledge is not quite as accessible.

After reading through the definition of Theory of Mind, and reading through some books, I still don't think I have that. Up until I was in my 20s---and it still happens today sometimes---I thought everyone thought the same way as I did, had the same emotions, etc. I know because I have been told that other people have different thoughts and feelings, but I still have so much trouble comprehending it. Even when I know they might think different because they are a separate human being, I still have no idea whatsoever what their thoughts, emotions, motives, etc are.

I also failed one of the most basic ToM tests out there.

Well, it looks like there is progress with you, as you posted a ToM emerged at 10. Maybe by doing what you're doing here will cause these things to gel. You won't forget it and it should add to ToM.

Are there certain exercises you can do to bridge these gaps, say by putting yourself in "mock" fail scenarios , but later learn by awareness/cognition? Is this maybe what CBT does?

I can't recall. I think I've always been more inclined towards a passive rather than active application of TOM. I would call things like feelings of self-consciousness and embarrassment, being careful not to hurt other people's feelings, etc... passive TOM. Active TOM would be deliberately trying to please people or make a positive impression, tell someone you love them or write a thank-you letter. Those things are still not instinctual to me. They are unnatural things that I have to deliberately remind myself and force myself to do.

Does this classification break-down make any sense to anyone here?

OK. I get it now after reading Verdandi's post.

Last edited by Mdyar on 09 Jul 2011, 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I've always known that I was a separate entity from other people, so I've always had a sense of self.

Up until age 7 or 8, I did think that all things except my family members were non-sentient objects. That's why I never spoke to them or responded to them when they spoke to me.

Around age 9 or 10 was when I realized that people had thoughts and feelings of their own, and that was also the age when I realized that speech and gesture were means of mind-to-mind communication. Voila! Suddenly, people were no longer non-sentient objects, and I could also communicate with them, albeit very very very oddly.

Around age 13 or 14 was when I realized that people had thoughts and feelings about each other.

In my 20s was when I realized that people had thoughts and feelings about each other that they didn't tell each other directly.

Around age 30, after my diagnosis, was when I started to study ToM. I was and am very shocked and somewhat horrified by what I have learned within the past few months.

Around some undetermined age, possibly never, is when I will remember to apply ToM in real-time. Or not. I'm not sure if this will ever happen.

It looks like a difference between doing and thinking. A seperation between the two .... maybe a lack in left and right side hemisphere communication.

I hope it's amenable.

I was about ten when it started and it got better and better as I got older. Of course I knew everyone had feelings before that but I didn't really understand them. I knew of crying and knew that person was sad when I see it. If someone yelled, I knew they were mad.

I still get shocked about what people think and feel. That's what I learn online just by reading things at Babycenter.

The earliest I remember thinking of myself as having a self was probably around 7 or 8? It was a really weird feeling, this realization.

I didn't really think of other people as having thoughts and feelings of their own until...well, it wasn't one moment but a series of psychological shocks when confronted with the evidence over time. I remember at six saying something to someone and she said something that was completely unexpectedly different from what I would think, and in fact I had no idea anyone could think in that way. I ran into this several times over the years, and even into my 20s.

I know I have had a tendency to react to people as if they're not precisely people, and it always surprises me when they assert that yes they are people with free will. This does not happen nearly as often as it used to (actually, hardly at all, the last time I really remember was in my late 20s). That's not to say I didn't realize that people are people with their own free will, thoughts, and feelings before that, but it's one of those things that's different in the moment versus intellectual realization, too.

I do know I still have trouble predicting and knowing how people will react to things I say, and I've still managed to cross the line in that regard several times just in the past few years. Two cases I specifically remember right now were instances where I badly hurt my niece's feelings because I didn't realize she wanted to talk to me after she'd been in a fight with housemates, and I needed to talk to the housemates about something - so I essentially ignored her and spoke to the housemates. When she explained it, it made sense, but I didn't even think about that.

The other instance was friendly teasing in my WoW guild during a raid. I got a bit too mean with someone and hurt his feelings, and his reaction was a total surprise to me - I didn't really think that he would take what I said that seriously, even though when people said similar things to me, I did take them seriously and ask them to not go there.

So aside from the first time I thought of myself as having/being a "self" I don't really have any specific times or moments where I shifted from one kind of awareness to another. I can sometimes keep things in mind so I know to be careful about what I am writing or (less often) saying, but more often I just don't think about those things and get unexpected reactions.

I do know I get better at it as I get older and I think I got about as good as I've ever been at it about 10 years ago or so.

One thing too is I've played a lot of roleplaying games, live-action and tabletop, and one big thing in that is "don't metagame." Basically, you have to maintain an intellectual theory of mind about your character as well as other people's characters, so you know whether or not your character knows something that you do know. I think this sort of thing may have been helpful over the years, to some extent, but it was also confusing. I had to know what my character knows about what that other character has done, as played by another person. It was usually better to just not know in the first place.

(btw, live-action roleplaying? No matter how much it was related to my interest, I think it contributed a lot to my first serious social burnout - too many people, even in heavily scripted and formalized situations governed by lots of rules).