social anxiety vs aspergers

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DSM-IV:

"Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by two of the following:



(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction



(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level



(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)



(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity"

all of these things can manifest themselves in people without asperger's, but with social anxiety/self-esteem issues. where do you draw the line? tons of neurotypicals have 'encompassing preoccupations' with different subjects; does it have to be something extremely esoteric to point to aspergers? i'm just curious where one disorder begins and another ends. how many people assume they're autistic but are really just painfully shy and introverted?

Some clues might be ASD things that happened in early childhood that aren't confusable with shyness, ie hand flapping, lining up toys, putting spinning objects up to the eye over and over, echolalia, etc.

Also maybe, sensory issues. Again, in childhood it would be more telling, as in there being concern about deafness, or freaking out at the sound of vacuums, not liking being touched, etc etc.

I fail to see how this can manifest itself in mere social anxiety. Someone with social anxiety would be able to look someone in the eyes or be able to not stare at people, even if they are nervous about doing so.

Someone with social anxiety would be able to recognize facial expressions, and regulate them 'normally' themselves-- no flat expression, no overly-dramatic faces etc. With Asperger's, someone would not be able to detect faces or be able to focus on those things while conversing, if they are able to converse.


Having Asperger's does not equate to having social anxiety, although some do. Those without can still not be able to make friends-- and for issues completely unrelated to anxiety.


In someone with Asperger's this wouldn't be related to anxiety.


I believe this means keeping a conversation going? If so, again, this is related to not understanding social things, not do to anxiety.

Asperger's is also defined by repetitive movements, strict routines, motor skills problems and special interests and other common features are sensory issues, auditory processing issues, visual spacing issues, etc.

Asperger's isn't just shyness/introverted. You can be extroverted and have Asperger's. Asperger's is basically autism without a speech delay and with a normal or above normal IQ. Here's the Gilberg Criteria which is more specific: http://www.bbbautism.com/asp_gillberg.htm
For the record:

buryuntime, my point was more that all of those things can manifest themselves in somebody with social anxiety. The eye contact thing too; most of the time anxiety manifests itself through self-esteem issues, and an aversion to looking someone in the eyes is pretty common there too.

do you think these are all necessary symptoms? how likely is a person to be autistic if they didn't have any of these?

I don't really get your point then.

Someone is not likely to be autistic if they don't stim, have sensory issues, etc as what Apple in my eye described.

They're not all necessary. Honestly, I'm not knowledgeable enough to say how many would mean what chance of an ASD. I think it would take an assessment to know that. It's just that those are associated things (and just off the top of my head), so if a person's profile is "super-shy plus really weird ASD thing (say, frequent head banging as a kid)" it makes it a lot
easier to disbelieve that it's just shyness.

(edit) I think I mistook your question a bit -- if someone had none of those, that could happen, I think, but does seem a little unusual. It's really hard to say (especially since that list is just a random sampling of traits).

can you explain stimming then? and how it differs from the relatively common nailbiting, foot tapping, pacing, fidgeting, etc.

or, for example, I often get urges to vocalize/clear my throat, scratch my hands, etc., just little tics. they manifest as annoying physical sensations I can't get rid of unless I do whatever it is. is that a 'tic' tourettes style, or 'stimming'?

I feel like I'd have to write too much, so here's a link or two:
http://www.creative-minds.info/index_files/Stimming.htm

The same DSM-IV-TR gives you this in its differential diagnosis section:

Someone suffering from social anxiety experiences anxiety in social situations but can be socially apt; someone with aspergers is idiosyncratic socially but doesn't necessarily feel anxiety around other people. Social anxiety has nothing to do with being overly formal socially, while asperger's does.

Like someone just said, social anxiety/phobia does not include pervasive impairments.

This is why part 2 is so important for diagnosis.

Part one may indicate AS, but part 2 will nail it down. People with pure social anxiety wouldn't display this stuff.

You can also look for things like sensory issues, stimming, alexithymia, lack of empathy (Although anxiety often comes with depression and depression will affect empathy), and executive dysfunction (but that's also associated with ADHD and APD)



Since anxiety often comes with depression, that creates another problem. With depression you look into people's eye much much less and often you'll have a flat tone of voice.

In children I suppose it would easier to fool this with anxiety. It would be hard for them to look at a stranger since 'politeness' may not have been drummed into their head yet. In adults, attention span can play a part. Notice how people look away from someone's face when they're thinking deeply or trying hard to remember something? If someone had attention span problems they may have to look away more. People with AS have executive function problems, so they have 2 reasons for not looking at people they're talking to.



This one confuses me. Isn't the problem with AS that they are TOO eager to tell people about their interests and achievements?

Lining up toys is partly a myth. In ASD it points to a lack of imaginative play. Many kids line their toys up but also play normally with them. The problem comes when lining up is ALL they do with them.

Motor skills are an indicator but may just be an indicator of lack of practice/involvement in sports. Unless it's really bad.

Dunno about APD. I've read things saying that as many as 5% of kids can suffer from it. That's a long way above the 1% or however many have ASD. So it's not conclusive enough but maybe these numbers are off, who knows...

Ok I've gone off topic so I'll shut up now

Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, but I'd consider the biggest difference between social anxiety and the social problems connected with AS to be that the social problems are still there even the anxiety goes away. If there are AS-type symptoms that result from social anxiety, then if you treat the anxiety with medication and/or therapy, all those social issues should go away. While with AS, they can eve get worse, because then you're just very confidently being completely socially inept. In general, if it's social anxiety, the social problems are a result of the anxiety. In AS, the social problems exist independently of any social anxiety that may or may not be present. (That's just speaking about the social side of it.. I'm deliberately not addressing the other criteria because I interpreted the thread to be speaking specifically of examining the root of social issues, rather than overall diagnosis?)

From the first criterion you posted, those with social anxiety know how to do all of that. It's just that what they communicate is them being scared or anxious.

107 words condensed from what would take the average psychologist 107 pages,
and would still lack the accuracy and clarity as paraphrased above.
No wonder they don't like us, they have job security issues.

Last edited by DaWalker on 11 Nov 2009, 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ok, so is it possible for someone with AS to also have SA?

I am not dx'd with anything, but there are different situations in which i am socially awkward. There have been times i just stand outside the circle (with our neighbors) and listen and TRY to put my thoughts in. Many times i keep them to myself because i can't find the words or can't figure out a way to contribute. I don't feel nervous. I just don't know when i need to add my voice and what to say. On the other side of it, I would be nervous to ask a stranger a question or ask a worker where something is. But then there are times when i just do it w/o even thinking about it, but only if i am not alone. Calling someone or even answering the door (pizza perhaps?) can make me nervous. I get nervous meeting up with old friends. I want to meet them, but i'd rather avoid it. Oh, the awkward silences. But then, i have met teachers and drs and have felt no nervousness at all and mostly i just nod (not knowing what to say or adding something that sounds a bit awkward). I also don't stay home to avoid people. I like going out, and eating out, as long as we aren't going out and eating out WITH other people! I also feel really awkward around several family members. I am not nervous, i just feel weird around them and i hardly talk to them...two are my own siblings!

Is that possible?