I really don't understand about Theory of Mind

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I tried looking it up on Google but I wanted to learn more about it here because I can learn easier by giving examples. I think I naturally have TOM, but I'm not sure, so I am going to give you an easy example of a situation I faced this week where TOM might have been involved, and I want to see if it means I do have TOM.

I met my friend outside the job centre and something awful had happened to her in there - she got seriously told off because evidentally she was not doing enough job search, although she actually had a page down full of things she had done. She was very upset, and was ranting about it the whole way back to her house. So I said (in an annoyed voice because I didn't think it was fair how they made her feel), ''why are they suddenly picking on you for?!'' and she yelled really loud, ''I DON'T KNOW!! !''

Although she yelled ''I don't know'', I still did not take offense because something told me that she wasn't yelling at me, she was yelling to me because she was ranting. So she was yelling in agreement. I also knew in her tone of voice aswell, but does this also mean that I have TOM? I never really had to learn this sort of thing, because most of the time something just tells me how to interpret it. I hope I've explaining myself clearly. Would you have trouble knowing the difference between knowing if they were just yelling in ranting and knowing if they were actually yelling at you? I don't have this trouble, but I was wondering who else would respond to this reaction, and those who lack TOM would just think that they were shouting at you.

Presumably everybody has SOME theory of mind , otherwise they would never be able to understand anything anyone else was doing.

That's an interesting example. I think my gut reaction would be "why are you yelling at me? I just asked a simple question." I can see why your response makes more sense though. I have actually run into that problem with people ranting. I keeping telling them "I agree with you!" and yet they want to keep going on.
So my instinct would be different than yours, although I agree your reaction makes more sense.

Yeah thats difficult to say. Theory of mind has its applications. Sometimes you know sometimes you don't.

I would take it to mean they were yelling at me and would feel hurt/nervous, but I would also take into consideration that they were upset or that maybe I asked an annoying question or something. At that point I would not be sure what to do really as I wouldn't want to push it and have them yell some more but at the same time I'd feel like I should do something to help.

Joe90, Your post reminded of a recent interaction with my mum. We were looking for some school uniform items for my daughter. I never realised that it could be so difficult. At this time of year, all you can get in the shops are a few basic items, none of them in the colours she needs. So, I was ranting a little (not shouting, just moaning really) about how it was ridiculous, don't they know kids take growth spurts at all times of year, why is everything for short fat kids, blah, blah. My mum made a suggestion about going somewhere that doesn't even stock uniforms. I said, 'No, they won't have any' and sighed. Maybe my tone was a little off, but I was exasperated by then. She became furious and her anger was directed at me. I had been ranting about the shops and I thought she understood that I wasn't angry with her, why would I be?

I don't know what this means. My mum can be difficult at times (not just with me). But, I don't know if it's TOM related or not, either hers or mine.

What I actually mean is, do most Aspies have trouble knowing the differences between somebody yelling at you and somebody yelling to you. Yelling ''I don't know!'' can mean two ways. One way could mean ''I don't know, will you shut up!!'' and another way could mean, ''I don't know, it's really nasty of them to treat me like this!!'' And they both depend on what tone of voice they say it in. The latter means that the person is not yelling at you but is agreeing with you and is yelling angrily about the job centre, and it's nothing to do with you. The former means that they are yelling at you.

I can tell the difference between somebody yelling AT me like I've done something wrong, and somebody yelling TO me like they think I am trusting enough to confide with. The latter is a compliment and I don't mind it at all.


Also, another example is, if it was raining outside and I was in a shop and somebody came upto me and said, ''miserable, isn't it'', I would auromatically know that they're talking about the weather, so I just say, ''yeah it sure is.'' But some Aspies who lack TOM might think, ''what's miserable?''

I am possibly an NT or I may be aspie but whatever I am I can't tell the difference if they just yell "I don't know". I would assume that they were yelling at me for asking a silly question (PN I am not saying your question is silly, actually I would ask the same question, what I mean is that in my hypothetical example my friend might have viewed it as a silly question in their moment of agitation and gotten annoyed with me for asking it) or something and that they are more agitated than usual because of what happened, but unless they added something like "I don't know, the damn job centre" I wouldn't know the difference.

I mean to me that would sound like it is a direct response to the question so I would assume it was me they were yelling at, not the job centre.

If I asked "Why are they suddenly picking on you" and they yelled "I don't know" I would read that they were yelling at me and that maybe I was being irritating as the yell seems like it was a direct response to my question and not a direct comment about the job centre itself. At which point I would feel very hurt.

In the second example:

I would also ask 'what is miserable' as they have not specified what they are talking about! Without the info you provided beforehand in that sentence I wouldn't have the faintest idea what they thought was miserable. Aside from which I love rain so it is never miserable to me, it is lovely and relaxing. I have long been confused as to why people dislike rain so much!

That's a great example for me not understanding what's going on at all and why the f**k any stranger would bother me with their drivel.

When they are asking for the way or any information, i can understand and respond. But i never understand pointless utterances like about the weather.

I wouldn't have been able to think that way. I probably would have sworn at her and walked off even if she was my friend. I would then sit alone wondering why the heck my friend shouted at me. I haven't got a great theory of mind at all and I can rarely understand people's motivations for doing/saying particular things.

Well I must be able to ''read between the lines'' then. I knew that my question didn't annoy her, and it was a rhetorical question anyway - I was asking more out of empathy, and she knew aswell, and so yelled ''I don't know'' about the job centre, so the invisible words what I automatically read were ''it's so unfair that they treated me like that!''

I get really sensitive to people shouting at me, but when they're doing something like the above, I don't get sensitive to, because I know that they're not shouting at anything to do with the question I asked. I was just empathising and was also angry with the way they treated her, and she felt the same and so was just responding.

So there are 3 Aspie traits I don't have here:
-Lack of empathy
-Lack of TOM
-Unability to read between lines

In the UK they are clamping down on everyone on benefits. I am on disability and was refused my disability when I went to the first medical. Even though I have problems I was given 0 points (and you need over a certain number to qualify). But they are apparently doing that to a lot of people at the moment who are not fit to work. So it went to a tribunal who awarded me disability on the basis that I cannot cope with social interaction and change and am presently unable to work. My last medical was not as bad as the first one and the awarded disability me on that review straight away, so I didn't need to go back to a tribunal again. I presently get DLA, ESA and Severe disablement allowance.

The government wants to get as many people off benefits as it can so it is hitting people hard at the moment. It might be the same in USA.

I would have thought she was yelling at me for asking her a question she didn't know the answer too. I would have assumed I pissed her off for asking it.

I can now figure out a lot of stuff intellectually (and more quickly now, from practice) that I couldn't understand from gut reaction before. I think having TOM really has to do with gut reaction in NTs and being able to figure it out intellectually if an Aspie develops it over time (though everyone's different, and an Aspie might not lack TOM or only lack it a little).

I still would get nervous and feel as though my friend were angry with me in your first example, but I now could understand intellectually that she'd probably be yelling to me, not at me. I could also figure out the one about the weather now.

Here's my example, which came to me this morning while I was making the bed and thinking things over:

Suppose you have a bad experience interacting with someone, and they mistreat you. You then tell a friend about it. The friend says, "That's terrible!" and makes an unpleasant face. TOM says, she's being sympathetic. Her face conveys the emotion; her words state it. An NT would get this as a gut reaction to the friend's sympathy, and the NT would then feel a bit better. I understand this intellectually now, so I'm able to overcome my gut reaction and accept the sympathy. As a kid, though, it's no wonder I felt so alone in the world. I had only my gut reaction, which was that my friend was telling me that what I'd said was a terrible thing to say, and the facial expression was indicative of displeasure with my statement. I'd then feel bad for making my friend feel uncomfortable. So, I wouldn't feel any better at all. In fact, I'd feel worse, because I'd feel guilty!

It seems like it's the same here in the U.S. It's real hard to prove that you're disabled by mental health issues. And SSI here in the U.S. doesn't even pay enough to live on. They don't cover many medications, either. Especially not brand-name ones. As for the OP, I can sometimes tell whether someone is yelling at me or at the situation in general.

Yes, I had to take two support workers to argue my case to the tribunal when I attended it.

I will say we do get more help with prescriptions over here, but as I am so sensitive to medications (they have a strong effect on me or I get a lot of side effects from them) I only take one moderate dose of an antidepressant (30mg mirtazapine or remeron in the states) a day. That is about mid range for dosage for that tablet. I don't have to pay for them though. We also get help with rent for housing in this country as well and I do get funding to do my Degree that I am studying part time (which is psychology of all things...I will find a way to figure people out one day lol) because I am on a low income. So in some ways it is not too bad. However, the funding for the degree is available to anyone who is on a low income even if they are employed as it is based on how much they have coming into their household per year. So is not restricted to those on benefits.

In regards to benefits in general, a lot of people are being turned away when they should be in receipt of disability benefits because the government wants as many people back in work and off state benefits as possible. Unfortunately the jobs are just not out there...the job market is poor right now so I don't know where they think these poor people are going to work even if they are well enough to seek out employment.

Personally I am trying to figure out a way that I can self employ, perhaps by turning one of my hobbies into a career lol. I am just not sure how yet as financially it is difficult.