Low muscle tone leads to difficulty in empathy?

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I was thinking...

Low muscle tone (hypotonia) is a symptom associated with AS.

http://www.myaspergerschild.com/2010/11 ... ss-in.html

Empathy/Social Intelligence involves mirroring others.

If we have issues with low muscle tone, perhaps we are less able to put our faces and bodies IN the same positions/expressions as those we are interacting...

Hence, if we are unable to physically do these expressions as well as others, then our ability to empathise may also be reduced?

This would mean it would be harder for us to understand others (apparently it helps to empathise if we can do or imagine ourselves doing the same movements as the person we are interacting with - once we imagine or are in those positions, it enables us to FEEL the same feeling associated with it), and it would also make us come across as less emotional to others (a limited range of movement compared with NTs, as if we aren't experiencing any emotions at all) and less empathetic as we wouldn't be mirroring them plus not able to say the right things. This could explain the strange disconnected vibe that is felt (well, I feel it anyway) when talking with others, and maybe why it is easier to connect with fellow aspies with a similar limited range of movements...

Just a thought.... I certainly have low muscle tone in my face, limited facial expressions, am uncoordinated, my muscles tire very easily, I am always slouching/leaning on things, I have difficulties with balance, and I am fairly slow at moving/initiating/reacting with my movements, plus I feel fairly disconnected from my body, I was/am bad at ball sports, and my fine motor control frustrates me (I am so bad at opening things too, it is almost as if the more I try to use my hand strength, the more it vanishes!).

(forgive me if this has already been brought up)

Also, it might also explain one reason we get so tired from social interaction - if our muscles tire more easily than others, then the constant trying to mimmic other's physical (facial and body) movements would be more tiring....

An interesting theory, but it is not so much not being able to do expressions as it is not registering. Empathy is all in the brain, so muscle has very little to do with it. If it was muscle and the like, that would imply people who are paralyzed or born without limbs lack the ability to empathize as well when this is very much not the case. Nor does it explain other people who actually "lack empathy" (note: Aspies do not lack it, it just does not properly process) such as sociopaths that are capable of such movements.

I hear what you are saying. I think where I am coming from, is that if we are less able to do certain movements that others are fluent at, then perhaps we are less able to do that particular movement to signify that emotion... It doesn't mean we don't have our own emotions or that we aren't capable of empathy. More so that the actual movements another person does that match their emotion is not one that we might do as we aren't as efficient at it, meaning we either (a) do it but to less of an extent, making us seem less emotional, plus maybe not fully experiencing the emotion as strongly as the other person, or (b) we might do a slightly different version of movement that is easier for us to represent said emotion. This might explain why people report that others say they make "strange facial expressions". That is, we have a slightly different choice of movement associated with an emotion to NTs, who have no issues with muscle tone and hence gravitate towards the same sets of movements to demonstrate an emotion.
I read somewhere (was it amongst mirror neuron research or Daniel Goleman's work?) that people who are good at both empathizing and communicating empathy, were good at mirroring others. Also, that we tend to do (or use the neurons that would usually execute the action without actually executing it) the same action we see others doing in order to "take on" that emotion, so that we understand what they are feeling.

I am referring to cognitive empathy here - the ability to detect others' thoughts, motivations, intentions, etc. Sociopaths are good at this. We are still capable of having these actual feelings ourselves. My point is that maybe we have a different set of movements that we experience them/portray them with.

Good point about those born without limbs, etc.... Am not sure about them... Maybe it is more to do with facial expression, or perhaps people without limbs, etc, DO have some social issues (though maybe their facial expression capabilities make up for it), I have no idea...

It would almost be like those with an ASD have a limited repertoire of expressions they can produce. Hence they might be able to communicate and understand certain ones (many ppl say they can do this, like with happiness, sadness, etc), but with ones that involve more fine motor control, we are less capable of, rendering us unable to show this emotion to others and less able to read it in others (because, to read an emotion involves being able to "try it on" first. The idea that if we make ourselves do the same expression as someone else, this will show our bodies what the emotion is. Similar to when someone says that if you make yourself smile, it will make you feel happy).

This has made me think of all sorts of things to do with motor control and autism.

I found this article here which, as I suspected, shows that the more severe the low muscle tone is, the more severe the autism is.

http://miriamjang.wordpress.com/2011/03 ... of-autism/

"Here are the results of our latest research study, which found a high correlation between muscle strength and autism severity. Basically, children with weaker muscle strength tended to have more severe autism; the more severely autistic children had roughly half the hand strength of the children with milder autism.
This is another demonstration that autism is a biological disorder affecting the whole body, and not only a disorder that affects the brain.
It also suggests that there may be a common mechanism affecting both the muscles and the brain, and one likely candidate are mitochondria, the “factories” in every cell that generate ATP (energy) for the brain and the muscles.
This also suggests that carnitine supplementation and similar treatments may be helpful in individuals with autism, and we are actively pursuing research on such treatments.
This study was funded in part by the Autism Research Institute.
The link between low muscle tone (especially core muscles) and poor fine motor skills has to do with the way in which our brains and body develop. Development proceeds in a mass-to-specific orientation. So, development happens in the head and trunk first and then moves to the limbs and from gross motor development to fine motor development. Meaning if someone does not have postural control and muscle tone then fine motor activities (such as handwriting) are going to be harder to master."

Further googling, and I have come across this site (hard to read with colours but ok if you highlight it):

http://www.rhythmicmovement.com/index.p ... &Itemid=18

These symptoms sound very much like autism to me!! ! And might explain why some people experience some more than others.

It fits with the theory that in an autistic brain, the pruning part of the nerves doesn't happen when it is meant to.

It also makes sense that this page suggest that Rhythmic Movement may help to fix this. Most stims have some sort of rhythm to them, from my observation. I wonder if each individual person's stims match up with the symptoms for each area? Mine seem to!

Anyone got any thoughts?

Found this YouTube which talks about the Primitive Reflex issues being associated with Autism/Aperger's/ADHD/Dyslexia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLBWHyhW1gk

And this article

http://www.totalhealthclinic.co/index.p ... l-reflexes

Interesting - I will consent to Autism affecting the whole body instead of just the brain, but the brain controls the whole body. Part of a massive system to keep us alive, so if one is messed up, everything else will follow.

Here is one article you will find interesting with an idea I have been exploring recently:
http://www.developmental-delay.com/page.cfm/262

There was also this one article I read that I believe may support your previous suggestion. The basic idea is that a group of people were selected to watch a movie. Half of them were told to watch the movie with pencils in their mouths (hence a "smile"), while the other half were told to watch normally. The ones who watched with a pencil in their mouths found the movie to be a lot funnier than those without.

Other than that, it is an actual theory, mostly applying to facial expressions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_feedback_hypothesis

From my own personal experience though, it still holds both ways. I can easily mimic other people's expressions or there actions if I chose to. For example, my mother speaks like an Italian (who stereotypically wave their hands everywhere while they talk). I do not look at her while doing so, but usually I will start to move my hands more than normal. When I am writing, I will sometimes make the same expression as a character so I can describe it better. And when I talk to people, I usually smile (because it is a programmed habit). But my empathy is primarily a make-shift patch of rules. My concept of emotion is worse due to Alexthymia.

Once more, if weaker muscles lead to more severe autism, then why not more severe autism lead to weaker muscles? It is kind of like the question of the chicken and the egg.

A big part of empathy is seeing and responding to the other party's facial features. (I think that the technical term for this is mirror neurons.)

If somebody has trouble reading facial expressions, they will have a hard time responding to them. (The reptile brain normally does a tremendous amount of work here.) This cuts both ways. An autistic may have trouble reading the espression of another person. And, if the autistic is less expressive (for one reason or another) the other person wil have trouble reading them.

(I have also noticed a similar effect with blind people. But, because the defect is more obvious, most people are more willing to work around it.)

Over time, this problem will no doubt magnify.

I have normal empathy.

Although I'm not a doctor, and I respect the research by those higher educated, I don't buy into the AS/Autism = lower muscle tone theory. I think it's cause & effect; cause being more sedentary habits of many of us with autism. Speaking for myself at least, I spent my toddler years sitting in one spot as far away from anybody else as possible as long as I was allowed to, and playing with one or two things the whole time; never up & running around, or doing anything physical unless coaxed. I was thrilled just being alone in my room all day. I think this was very different from NT toddlers' habits. I too had low muscle tone and clumsiness (gross motor clumsiness; not fine motor). Once I came into special interests which led me to be more active, the muscle tone issue disappeared completely (if my avatar is any evidence, LOL), as did much of the gross motor clumsiness.

So the bottom line is that I think it's possible that many on the Spectrum with low muscle tone, are that way as a result of habits in life, and that's not intended as judgmental.

Charles

Well, I am not sure whether the low muscle tone causes struggles with empathy, but I can definitely say that it affects my son's abilities to interact with his peers.

My son is 7 yrs old, and actually, low muscle tone was the first indication to us that something just wasn't right. Autism was not on my radar at all because he smiled, he babbled, and he was very affectionate to us. But at 6 mos of age, he was not attempting to sit up. He didn't sit up until he was 10 mos old. He didn't crawl until he was 13 mos old, and he didn't walk until he was 22 mos old. All of this was due to his low muscle tone. It was during the time we were taking him to physical therapy that the therapist starting pointing out autistic traits such as not pointing, not sharing things with us, not using language to communicate back and forth with us.

He was diagnosed as PDD-NOS at 2.5, but the more time goes by, he is a classic case of Asperger's. He has trouble interacting with his peers, he has repetitive language habits, he is obsessed with car makes and models and talks about them all of the time. He does not play with other children unless prompted. I have noticed that it is hard for him to keep up with kids his age because he is slower than they are. He can't keep up the pace with their games, so he just wanders off on his own and doesn't try. So I definitely feel that the low muscle tone was there from birth and he was born that way. Now the fact that he has low muscle tone may lead to him being more sedentary, so it probably doesn't help him increase his strength, but I feel it was an issue from birth.

He has come a long way, he finally learned to jump at 4 yrs of age. He can run pretty well, but we have to remind him to not wave his hands in the air while he runs. He is getting better at climbing on playground equipment now, but most of the time prefers to do it on his own and not keep up with a group of kids. He still has balance issues and handwriting issues. He still has to grab my hand sometimes when he is stepping off a curb. He has zero interest in team sports.

So, with all of this said, I truly believe that there is a strong connection to the low muscle tone and the amount of difficulties an Aspie might face.

It might also be self-enforcing. Low muscle tone leads to poor athletic abilities leads to disinterest in moving around leads to poor muscle tone which leads to.... You get it.

Bear, your kid sounds very similar to myself when I was growing up. I was disinterested in sports, particularly organized team sports and generally physically behind.

Does anybody hear have trouble physical awareness (knowing which parts of you are where)?

Yeah, I got these neighbors who have been playing their stereo a bit too loudly. Would you mind "visiting" them for me?

I am quite sure I read that low muscle tone is separate from muscle strength. That it is still possible to get a physique like yours, and with low muscle tone, but maybe that it is more difficult. It is different from most people refer to as a "toned body". I can get a very toned body also, but I definitely relate to having a degree of low muscle tone. I will post some info about it.

http://www.childdevelopment.com.au/low-muscle-tone
'Low Muscle Tone' is a condition of abnormally low muscle tone, the amount of tension or resistance to movement in a muscle. Low muscle tone occurs when the length of the resting muscle is slightly longer than typical. This means that the muscle fibers are not overlapping at an optimal level and there are fewer points where the fibers can attach and generate pull on the muscle. As a result, the person's muscle needs to go through a greater range of motion and, as a result, more energy is used. On top of this, it often takes greater stimulation for the muscle to activate, which also increases the response time of the muscle and it directly influences the child's performance abilities. The use of extra energy contributes to the decrease in the child's endurance.

What are the features of it?
Decreased strength.
Increased flexibility and movement in joints.
Poor endurance.
Common challenges experienced by those with this condition:
Fatigues quickly.
Poor posture.
Increased flexibility, increasing susceptibility to injuries.
Poor persistence to gross motor tasks.
Lack appropriate body awareness feedback.
Avoids chewy foods.
Preference to engage in sedentary activities.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypotonia# ... e_strength
Hypotonia is a state of low muscle tone[1] (the amount of tension or resistance to movement in a muscle), often involving reduced muscle strength. Hypotonia is not a specific medical disorder, but a potential manifestation of many different diseases and disorders that affect motor nerve control by the brain or muscle strength
Hypotonia is thought to be associated with the disruption of afferent input from stretch receptors and/or lack of the cerebellum’s facilitatory efferent influence on the fusimotor system, the system that innervates intrafusal muscle fibers thereby controlling muscle spindle sensitivity.[2] On examination a diminished resistance to passive movement will be noted and muscles may feel abnormally soft and limp on palpation.[2] Diminished deep tendon reflexes also may be noted.
Hypotonia is a condition that can be helped with early intervention


http://www.skillsforaction.com/?q=node/22
Difficulties:
May be late learning to sit and walk - but not always
Have trouble sitting erect and working at a table - tend to sit with back rounded, may lean on one hand when drawing and writing
Have difficulty sitting still, tend to fidget, not complete school tasks
May tire very quickly, not like walking far, have trouble going up stairs
May be good at games that involve short bursts of running, but have difficulty with posture in sitting, drawing and handwriting - these tasks require sustained activity in the postural muscles
Sit between legs on floor (w-sitting), do not like cross legged sitting
Appear to have poor attention span or concentration, give up easily

Causes:
The most common cause of these difficulties is joint hypermobility associated with a cautious temperament.

In individuals with hypermobile joints (loose or lax joints) the connective tissue structures that hold the body together have more give (are more easily stretched) than usual. This means that the muscles must work harder than usual to hold the keep a good posture and move.



For me, I tire very easily from physical activity. I always have, and I have gone through stages of being extremely fit and toned. Yet I STILL have issues with endurance, posture, and muscle fatigue. I used to swim 6 times a week, play basketball & netball (badly I might add lol), and do athletics, yet still I would tire easily. My posture has never been great, and I do always have to lean on stuff... Also, I can bend my fingers back 90 degrees, and twist my arm around strangely! I could never do the splits though, so who knows lol Watching videos of my as a child though, and I was awful at navigating around stuff on playgrounds, etc, so sloooow and uncoordinated lol
Cannot hang on the monkey bars, do not like climbing on the jungle gym, are fearful

So where would my high muscle tone fit into all this?