Um, I'm an aspie that lies . . .

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The problem is that you're not being honest. You're assuming that everyone does a particular thing that everyone does not do. It's not even a question of morality, but of capability.

Diagnosis doesn't make you autistic, but it detects whether you have it or not. Of course there are some cases where the self-diagnosis ends up being true, but such cases are far from universal. I'm yet to see any credible statistics on the percentage of the self-diagnosed people who received the autism diagnosis. I would assume that it would be around 20 to 30% - but that's just an assumption.

No that was not the logical fallacy known as appeal to emotion. For that to be the case I would have had to have been using that statement to attempt to support an argument which I was making or to change your opinion in some way. I was not doing this, I even specifically stated to you that I agreed that self diagnosis was not reliable. An appeal to emotion specifically entails an attempt to use emotion to obscure or support an otherwise fallacious argument. So, no appeal to emotion was made. The statement stands alone and is not being used to support any argument: there are people for whom self-diagnosis is the only option. I asked you whether you think it is reasonable to call vulnerable people out on something when they are potentially at a difficult juncture - and you still did not answer that question. Ever consider a career in politics?. You did not answer that question and instead proceeded with your petty little game of "being right on the internet" (I know all about it because I like to play it too ). Well, I'm afraid on this occasion you've simply made yourself look ridiculous by claiming I employed a logical fallacy which I did not employ and which you have demonstrated you do not understand AND by continuing with your pompous assumption that you have any right to tell people how they can and cannot describe themselves. If you don't agree with people then fine but keep it to yourself because you are dealing with vulnerable people who do NOT need you questioning them. You are not the forum police. That was my point. Understand that? Now stop it.

Edit: Are you also so arrogant to think that people didn't already find out themselves that self-diagnosis is not an ideal solution? That you are the only one who can use google and a browser? Your arrogance really is staggering.

"An appeal to emotion specifically entails an attempt to use emotion to obscure or support an otherwise fallacious argument." - That's exactly what you did. You're trying to legitimize self-diagnosis as a diagnostic method for those who don't have the resources for a proper diagnosis, mostly due to a backward economic system called "minimal state intervention free enterprise capitalism".

" I asked you whether you think it is reasonable to call vulnerable people out on something when they are potentially at a difficult juncture - and you still did not answer that question." - Yes, it is. It's reasonable to point them out that self-diagnosis is very unreliable. Many of the symptoms of Asperger's can be caused by conditions such as psychosis, social anxiety disorder, schizoid personality disorder, etc.

"Are you also so arrogant to think that people didn't already find out themselves that self-diagnosis is not an ideal solution?" - Self-diagnosis is never an ideal solution. And besides, I have no reason to believe that a great number of people can't be wrong. After all, ~25% of the population believes that astrology is basically true. The vast majority also believes in a supernatural God, which is about as ridiculous.

What have you been diagnosed with Towercrane?

PDD-NOS. I was firstly diagnosed with a "developmental disorder", after which I called my psychiatrist and asked which precise one was it, and he justified my assumption on his diagnosis.

You are incredibly pompous aren't you? The mention of economic systems was irrelevant to the conversation. Now you are word dropping to attempt to make yourself appear more intelligent. It's really quite transparent and really quite silly and it really doesn't work. I did not "attempt to legitimize" anything. I have agreed that self diagnosis is not reliable but you are stepping around that fact - for what reason I have no idea. The fact that it is not reliable and even, if you wish to phrase it that way, "not legitimate" does not mean it is not useful for some people. There are people who have manifestly benefited from their self diagnosis.


Again with the incredible arrogance. If people have arrived at the point where they feel confident to self diagnose then they have almost certainly read about other conditions which may be causing their difficulties and will have ruled out some. Psychosis and schizoid personality disorder both have very specific symptoms which make them very easy for even an educated layman to rule out. I suppose one out of three isn't too bad. If people have asked you for your opinion on their views of their own life then feel free to give them. Until such a time as that happens then I think you'll find you'll just piss people off if you carry on doing it.


Now who is employing logical fallacies? I didn't say it *was* an ideal solution, anywhere. I didn't say that people can't be wrong, anywhere. Astrology and the number of people who believe in it is irrelevant as are the number of people who believe in god. Those are articles of faith and are in no way similar to people arriving at a conclusion, however potentially faulty, based on extensive research, self observation and discussion.

I'm done with this conversation. Like I pointed out earlier, you're playing a very poor game of "try to be right on the internet" and I'm bored of it now. Grow up to be honest.

Isn't this really the same as being a very bad liar? I mean, if you've tried to lie and the result was your throat closing over the lie, isn't that the same a stating the lie with a look on your face that clearly says your lying? The impulse to lie is there, but the execution falls flat.

And to speak in order to mislead is known as prevaricating......

If you consider the impulse to lie being people actively wanting to test what would happen if I were to try and me testing it with them then I'd agree the impulse is there.

I actually also have no interest in it in any real life situation. Much of this testing was done after realizing that I can't lie in character either.

But I don't know if I'd consider it the same as just being a really bad liar?The point is being unable to, not being not wanting to in this discussion...

I won't say I've never lied in my life. I lied when I was 7, about whether I liked a particular type of candy. I still feel traumatized in some ways about it. I am almost certain I've never lied since then.

I will mention in these discussions that I can mislead, because I want to give all the information. I can in fact mislead. I'm good at it. I don't like doing it. It's not a common thing for me to do. It takes a large thing for me to do - not little white lies. The last time I can think of doing so is in 2007.

In an excellent book I've just read - Asperger Syndrome in Adulthood: A Comprehensive Guide for Clinicians (Kevin Stoddart, Lillian Burke, Robert King) - the authors say pretty much the same thing. That those that self-diagnose and then present themselves for diagnosis are usually correct.

The only caution around there and Attwood's statement, is that these people do go on to obtain a diagnosis. Among those who do not take this step, the likelihood of a correct self-diagnosis could be much lower. In the UK at least you must make it past your GP, who whatever there ability and knowledge of AS will perform some minimal screening.

Talking of Attwood, this whole thread has perhaps come about from the view that Aspies rarely lie. It's perhaps more correct to say that aspies tend to follow rules.

I can lie very convincingly, I'm pretty good at poker. I'm actually worse at telling the truth. If I'm accused of anything which I haven't done, I'll smile or blush or some other odd behaviour that makes it seem as though I'm lying. When I was much younger I had a third reaction, which was to be unsure whether I had done something or not. I don't think I had, but at the time it seemed as though it could have bene something I'd done, so I found it really hard to answer.

Jason.

The problem is - aspies often don't know well enough what the rules are in any given situation. Aspies follow the rules, but this rules is often very different from other people's rules.
In the result aspies often lie, when there is no point in lying and dont tell lies when social standards expect them to.



We dont have many ASD specialists in my city and no one at all who specialize in adult ASD. And I highly doubt that there is such specialist in my country at all.

It doesn't matter what some authors say - an observational study is needed. There are many authors who say that the universe was designed by God. If someone simply expresses their opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean it's correct.

They have observed that the majority of self-referring clients are correct. I'll take their word on it.

Jason.

"You are incredibly pompous aren't you? The mention of economic systems was irrelevant to the conversation. "

It's very relevant. In fact, it's very relevant when more than 20% of the national income goes to 1% of the population. This is also the excessive income which could be used for proper health care in the vast majority of countries.


"The fact that it is not reliable and even, if you wish to phrase it that way, "not legitimate" does not mean it is not useful for some people. There are people who have manifestly benefited from their self diagnosis."

There are also people who were notably harmed by their self-diagnosis. Notably, those who have conditions such as psychosis and don't seek proper medical attention because they think they have Asperger's.

"Self-diagnosis is never an ideal solution."

Self-diagnosis is never a solution. Self-assumption is. One CAN assume that they *might* have Asperger's / other ASD.

"I'm done with this conversation. Like I pointed out earlier, you're playing a very poor game of "try to be right on the internet" and I'm bored of it now."

That's called participating in an argument. If you're bored of it, don't argue.

Do they have any statistical data? What Confidence Intervals were used? What was the sample size? What was the margin of error? Could they publish it? I will believe that self-diagnosis is reliable as soon as I will be presented with proper evidence that it is. I need observational studies.

Anything that doesn't use the scientific method is highly unreliable. The human mind is prone to logical fallacies. The scientific method, along with statistics, help to eliminate these fallacies.

To self-diagnosed aspies: have you considered DIY electroconvulsive therapy as a cure? You can take two electrical wires and wrap them around your head, then plug them into the mains.
If you're going to self-diagnose, you might as well self-medicate too.