Aspergers and high copper levels

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It may be that people with Aspergers though not other forms of autism are more adversely affected by high copper levels:

read the study here:
High Copper levels as GABA antagonists
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3235993/

The non-aspergers part of the autistic sample was helped by Vitamin B6 and zinc to lower excess copper, though this was not the case for the aspergers part of the sample population.

This article has useful information on lowering Cu excess:

Addressing high copper levels:
http://nutritionalbalancing.org/center/ ... xicity.php

And a reference list of high copper foods:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000 ... 000-3.html?

(If you don't know what an antagonist is, it means something that decreases the effect of something else, ie high copper levels weaken the effect of the neurotransmitter GABA, which people on the spectrum often seem to be innately deficient in). An agonist is something that maximises the effect of something else.

I have not come across this suggestion of high copper/differential impacts before today, so will be investigating it further to see what turns up in the research literature which may shed more light on the issue. Consistently, research has led me back to the crucial importance of GABA in alleviating the adverse effects of ASD. The complexities of this were not evident to me when I began investigating this; the more I learn the more fascinating the issue becomes.

Currently I am experimenting with GABA agonists and antagonists - such as coffee (an antagonist) and probiotics (an agonist) and other foods in both categories. I would be really interested in hearing from anyone else intensively interested in this field.

I once worked as a sort of an assistant to a therapist. My client had Wilson's Disease--its symptoms are caused by high copper levels. He had some autistic symptoms--but wasn't diagnosable as autistic in my opinion.

His main symptoms were impulsivity, reduced physical ability with a shuffling gait, and depression. He had an autistic-type stim, though.

Excess copper causes neurological-type symptoms.

Yes, it does. Wilson's Disease is far more rare than autism (the incidence rate is 1 in 30,000 for Wilson's). Whether there are links to autism has been debated extensively, with most research tending toward the "no relationship" conclusions.

Nevertheless, as you point out KK, raised copper levels are a factor common to both:

ElevatedCu levels are associated with excessive dietary intake,infections, inflammation, Wilson’s disease, trauma,systemic lupus erythematosus, as well as autism(Russo and deVito 2011).

That's interesting. My son's neurologist just started him on a vitamin b6 regiment to hopefully help with seizures. He has a mutation in SCN1A gene and apparently there have been studies on mice that showed that B6 helped mice with mutations in this gene. Hey, if it helps with autism, that'll be an added bonus!! !

ETA: do not know if he has high copper levels though. We haven't actually looked at autism from a medical perspective much (a bit busy with this epilepsy crap). Maybe we should. I'm intenseky interested but haven't the time to intensely research unless it directly pertains to my life (by way of my kids).

Ohemgee all those pennies I had been around and owned as a kid that explains everything.
I couldn't care less about something new they think causes Asperger's every two minutes, when are they just going to accept it?

Aspies and cats will do as they please, and NT's and dogs need to just get used to it.

Fascinating. Thanks for sharing the link.

The suggested role of zinc and copper in regulating (or disrupting) GABA is very interesting.

I wonder why there isn't more recent research on this.

I wonder if the differences in response to zinc and B6 treatment between subjects with an autism and aspergers diagnosis would have been missed if the study were conducted post DSM 5? Certainly, the DSM 5 change will make it harder to identify group responses now.

I am looking at the genetics of congenital malformations at the moment, but the whole question of the regulation of neurotransmitters seems like an interesting approach. There may be another link with variations in the gut microbiome there, as a number of studies have shown a gut microorganisms playing surprisingly strong role in neurotransmitter regulation (e.g., Serotonin).

Altogether, a fascinating area to study.

Taking B6 makes my peripheral neuropathy worse.

Thanks Slave and Adamantium.

One of the things I perhaps should make clear on threads like this generally, as an OP, is that I am not proposing cure (I'm not a curebie) nor cause (too complex to be related to any single factor and I am centrally interested in effects of being on the spectrum). The function of the GABA neurotransmitters and their effect on anxiety is my special interest; and the reason it became my central interest is because anxiety seems to be one of the foremost difficulties of being on the spectrum. Anxiety gets in our way or using the good things that come with ASD status.

So in threads like this one I hope to share interesting and useful information in relation to attenuation of the anxiety response which potentially people can explore for themselves without harmful side effects. I know (from reading and experience) that prescription drugs, notably Clonazepam, raise GABA and attenuate anxiety because of the GABA agonist effect; and for severe anxiety it remains the most effective agonist that I have so far found. However my search has moved on to healthier alternatives, and continues.

Some people get this and some people don't, immediately assuming I am proposing some single-issue-cause (not my style at all!) or cure (I am anti-cure).

Anxiety creates a huge set of barriers for the majority of people on the spectrum. Remove the anxiety and possibility will possibly, probably, expand exponentially in terms of maximising the use of individual talents and aptitudes. So that is where I am coming from.

Today I am looking at herbs which interact with GABA levels in the brain:

http://sydney.edu.au/medicine/pharmacol ... Fs/390.pdf

and am about to begin a trial on myself using skullcap/valerian/passionflower/zinc and B6 in combination..

B19, do you try this stuff out without a doctor's suggestion? You seem very knowledgeable about it (way more than your "average joe" like me for instance) but I've read a bunch articles about the risks about prescribing yourself vitamins and supplements lately, that's why I was wondering. I'm especially curious because what if you have an underlying condition that you don't know about? I've known my son had epilepsy since he was 9 months old but we only learned that he had dravet syndrome (type of epilepsy) when he was 11 years old. Due to the SCN1A (sodium channel) mutation, there are a number of AEDs, such as lamictal and keppra (both of which my son has been on) that make *dravet* seizures WORSE. This is what makes me feel very cautious now. (Having said that, this all happened under a neurologist's watch so I guess doctors aren't all they're cracked up to be sometimes, huh…). [I'm sorry none of that had anything to do with autism].

Also, how would you know if whatever you're trying is working? If I see an improvement in my son's behaviour, it always seems like it could be any number of things causing it. Do you control any variables when you are trying stuff?

By the way, I didn't see anything in your post that suggested it was a cure. I appreciate your take on it, personally.

Good questions WTH.

Unfortunately, I haven't yet met a doctor (of medicine, at GP level) who knows anything much about GABA apart from drug company literature regarding benzodiazepines. That's not surprising, since this area of research is a generally part of a different discipline: molecular biology. (There are other fields too but most doctors will know little about them beyond very superficial ideas). I do work with one GP who asked me to supply and update her on particularly compelling research that I find; she told me that they basically got about one hour on topics like this as students at medical school! But she is an outlier..

At my age (nearly 70) there is little in the way of underlying conditions that has not been identified. The main one is immune deficiency and the presence of a paraprotein in my blood, which are markers for MGUS and increase the risk of developing lymphoma and myelomas; because of the risk I am regularly monitored by clinical immunologists, they do bone marrow biopsies, CT scans and keep a close eye on things. So far so good.. I would think that if I lived to a great age, then things probably would progress to myeloma, however (fortunately really) the more usual killers of "ordinary" people are far more likely to get me first - cardiovascular most probably; but you have to die of something, sooner or later; what I do know is that stress shortens life: stress=inflammation=prolonged inflammation=disease states. And that GABA, because of its inhibitory effect on the 'agitational neurotransmitters', lessens stress because it lessens anxiety, which has healthful flow on effects.

My university training gave me the tools, and my grandson's severe autism gave me the initial inspiration to look closely at the neurotransmitters of autism. (He is doing very well now at 18). Again and again studies I read in different fields led back to the role of GABA deficiency. As there have been so many people in my family on the spectrum - in all of the five generations ranging from my grandparents to my grandchildren - I have had close and long term exposure to the many different effects of being on the spectrum. My children and grandchildren do go to ordinary doctors; and if they find no help there, they ask me what to do, and I don't suggest anything that carries risks for each of them, they are all different and I tailor suggestions to their individuality (which GPs don't).

What I do know is that doctors seem very largely not to know that people on the spectrum often react to drugs in unconventional ways; when autists consult GPs, they are generally treated as if they were neurotypicals. The differences are something that the medical world is just not getting..as yet.

In terms of monitoring effect (a very good question WTH), there are a range of indicators that I monitor - how I sleep; my waking state (energy, mood, motivation, calm, agitation, fatigue, alertness etc); common markers of anxiety like pulse rate; how effects alter (or not) over a 24 hour period. I also closely notice my allergies as these tend to be a good stress indicator too and will flare when anxiety increases. Conversely, the allergies are attentuated or quiescent when anxiety is low. I am pretty good at rating my anxiety levels on a 1-10 basis just from how I feel at any time. A 10 (really bad) has overt symptoms like shaky hands, rapid heartbeat, the usual symptoms of autonomic arousal when the fight or flight response is triggered.

If experimentation harms me (it hasn't so far) I don't really care; the potential for gain outweighs the risks at my age and stage, and I like nothing more than to use my training to contribute something useful, primarily to my family, but also as a general interest matter to those on the spectrum who are interested in these neurotransmissional impacts, particularly those for whom anxiety is their most significant spectrum disablement.

One size never fits all - not in conventional medicine nor any other treatment modality. GPs cannot predict who will be allergic to penicillin for example, until someone takes it and has a bad reaction. I can't predict how GABA will work for anyone else; though I can make some informed, research based guesses - the research available from journals mainly, and my own little follow-up trials are experimental just on a personal level, not something I would base advice to my family on. Even at university long ago when molecular biology was in its infancy, I wished that it had been an option that was offered then, so that I could have majored in it - I could see that it was going to lead to tremendous breakthroughs in the future, that had eluded mainstream medicine.

It has, though the important findings tend to fly under the public radar (perhaps the media can't make head nor tale of the studies and for some reason the field maybe doesn't attract publicity-hound types of scientists); molecular biology has never been 'fashionable' and 'sexy' to the media in the way that neuroscience currently is;
possibly that is a very good thing, because when areas of science become fashionable and sexy, you tend to get a proportion of rogue scientists who follow research money and the glory trail, and that has led to some very bad 'scientific findings' indeed being trumpeted as 'fact' - the level of cheating tends to increase, even though the majority will be honest in their endeavours. But that's another story...

Thanks for replying! It's cool that you've been able to help your family.

This is the article that originally interested me in this:
http://www.washington.edu/news/2012/08/ ... -mutation/

I kind of wish I had someone looking at my older son's brain too. Where we live all autism treatment is behavioural and it hasn't been effective for him at all. My older son has no medical problems- it's really really rare that he's sick, and he's also very tall and strong and looks healthy, so of course we don't treat him medically. But the brain is part of the body too…
I think he has anxiety but it gets dismissed because he doesn't behave in a typical anxious way (but why would he? He doesn't do anything in a typical way). I find that everything he does gets dismissed now with "he's doing that because he's severely autistic", as if this just how it is. Anyway…interesting stuff. Thanks for the links.

I herd that Captain Spock's blood is copper base as apposed to iron based in humans. I wonder if there any coincidence there?