Are we always wrong, then?

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I read the following example of AS/NLD social dynamics on the web and found it very enlightening.

Johnny is playing with a toy. Davy sees him and wants to play too, so he enthusiastically approaches Johnny. Johnny doesn't want to share right now, so he kind of turns his back a bit to Davy as he approaches. Missing the meaning of this body language message, Davy continues approaching till he reaches Johnny who, feeling his desire to be left alone purposefully ignored, punches Davy.

Does this mean that I have to assume most anyone who treats me like garbage must be in the right and I'm most always in the wrong?

If my question is unclear and someone understood it, can you please rephrase it more clearly?

It means if you walk up to somebody and try to take something from them without first verbally confirming that it is acceptable to them, you are in the wrong.

edit: You're making a leap in logic from specific to general. It refers to a rather specific situation, and situations which are merely similar in one or more ways could have totally different rules.

Last edited by Buttoneater on 25 Sep 2012, 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I mean if someone treats you like garbage, you have to assume that, because you're autistic, you don't notice when you did something to deserve being treated like that. So anyone who treats you like garbage, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt and justify their cruelty towards you as well done.

This is a horrible way to live.

It reminds me of the Elephant Man, how he had to continue being all nice to those who treated him horribly, because he had to be understanding that anyone would be horrified by him and react very negatively.

Last edited by Moondust on 25 Sep 2012, 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not totally sure what you mean, do you mean that Aspies are "wrong by default"?

I posted this exemple a few weeks ago about that double standard, the fact that it is widely accepted that Aspies are lacking empathy toward NTs and that makes us "mentally ill", while the total lack of empathy NTs feel toward Aspies (leading from indifference to bullying) is totally acceptable and OK:

Case 1: When an Aspie is inconsiderate toward an NT and the NT is hurt, people will blame the Aspie for lacking empathy toward the feeling of others.

Case 2: inversely, when a NT bullies and is inconsiderate toward an Aspie, people will blame the Aspie's inability to "cope" with the social skill of the NT (instead of blaming the NT).

In both case, identical but inverted, the Aspie is considered the "wrongdoer" and the NT gets away with it.

Is this what you meant?

Last edited by tchek on 25 Sep 2012, 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I've grown as a person and have no difficulty with it anymore. Empathy flows from my every orifice. Body language is like a large print book. I'm not providing an opinion, I'm stating a fact.

edit: Sorry if that came across as harsh, but at this point I know instinctively if I've done something wrong, which is rare, because I don't do wrong things very often anymore. If I do I will realize it before the other person says something about it, and will offer a sincere apology which is accepted then and there. I just realize that stuff now.

Also I wanted to let you know the meaning of your question was very clear to me immediately and it was a lot better written than a lot of posts.

I realize you were the one (moondust) I was talking to when I first wrote that post few weeks ago...

I understand exactly what you mean....it's like we're autistic so therefore we don't know what to do in social situations, don't know boundaries, don't read other's cues etc. and screw up without realizing it which causes people to get angry with us (even violent in some cases) so therefore if someone is mean to us we should assume that it's our fault because we did something wrong without realizing it? That is a horrible way to live ,I agree.

I think in some cases it's true that we made a terrible mistake and it's our fault...but not always.....sometimes the person's reaction to your mistake is completely disproportionate to the mistake you made and sometimes you made no mistake at all........some people are just mean.................the problem for me is knowing when I accidentally offended someone or misread a cue and the degree of damage or upset caused by the mistake.

If you think you'll never be able to tell, no matter how much you think and philosophize about it, just don't let people treat you like garbage period, it's not ok to treat people like garbage. Just walk away. If you're pursued, call the cops and say you have autism and are scared someone wants to hurt you. Also mention on the phone that the mentally ill and handicapped are some of the most frequent victims of violence and sexual assault, by far.

daydreamer, thank you, that's exactly how I would've wanted to phrase it indeed.

tchek, this is a bit off-topic, but most people mix up the terms and the concepts of empathy and compassion. Empathy is the ability to detect how the other is feeling (then you use the info for good or for evil). Compassion is, once you know how someone is feeling (because someone told you or because you have empathy, or because you read his feelings in the paper) wanting to ease their pain. So autistics lack empathy, absolutely, it's a fact. Which says nothing about our capacity for compassion. I have zero empathy, and I'm extremely compassionate. One of the possible results of empathy is compassion, but other possible results are exploitation, use, abuse, scorn, taking advantage and what not. NTs have empathy, autistics don't. It has nothing to do with how compassionate a specific NT or a specific autistic is.

Buttoneater, words for aspies to live by indeed. I'll make a point of remembering your words in such situations. I did start thinking that way recently, but I wasn't totally sure.

When my mother was dying and unable to breathe, the woman that had to give me the breathing machine for my mom wouldn't give it to me because I hadn't looked her in the eye. She yelled and yelled at me for not looking her in the eye. If it happened now, I'd tell her "I don't look in the eye because I'm autistic. If for that reason you can't remain civil and attend to a life or death emergency, I'll report you to the Ministry of Health as unsuitable for your job."

This just made me feel bad about yelling at my aspie dad for refusing to make eye contact with me during an argument last night. It's weird me being the less autistic of the two of us now. I'm sorry dad! I'll call him up, he should still be awake.

Moondust: Well probably, though sometimes NTs don't understand/ignore Aspies requests as well, so they can "lack empathy" in a sense. My take is that Aspies and NTs are living in two different worlds and have a hard time communicating with each others. There is no reason why Aspies should be considered the "wrong" ones because it takes two to communicate. The NTs way of communicating is more accepted because it is the standard one, but not the most rational one.

In your exemple, the NT is showing his disapproval by turning his back. He wasn't understood. Who's fault is that? People will say the Aspie didn't get the NTs disapproval; but invert the roles for a minute... and people would have blaming the Aspie for not formulating his disapproval openly, see what I mean?

My point was that there is a double standard in judging "who is wrong" when a NT and an Aspie interact.
The aspie will always be considered the responsible one whether he is the "bully" or the "bullied", because in the former case he will be considered "inconsiderate/offensive", and in the later case he will be considered "socially awkward" (as in your exemple).

They were both wrong. That is why people should use words.

Yep, having NVLD/AS you are always wrong all the time no matter what. That is life.

It depends on the situation.

For example, if you say things literally the NT may instead perceive it as a part of their social games (a threat to their social value for example), in which case the differing neurotypes are the cause of conflict.

Also, we have a preference for low-level visual processing (like animals do). That's why we usually can get along with animals and "read" them well, while the NTs are deficient in this. So much boils down to the fact that our means of communication are simply different.