ASD + Extroversion = Out of Luck?

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Do rather low social skills plus very high social desire mean someone is doomed to a lonely and unhappy life?

I'm now in my mid-thirties, and even as a preschooler I'd chat up strangers, which was a bit more acceptable at the time and place where I grew up than it is now. Still, a five-year old trying to interview people who seem smarter than his parents about what he read in the newspaper is, of course, a little odd. And that little professor might be cute to some adults, but definitely not to peers, and the adults will find it less cute as he gets older, too.

These days, it works sort of the same. I'm going to a bar, alone and burning with envy for the group of three guys who go together, and chat up people. One piece of advice I once got from an acquaintance was to be "normal" when talking to people--this is, of course, not very helpful. I was also crazy enough to wager my ability to pay the mortgage on my ability to sell professional services; it is actually paying the bills just so right now, but you can imagine that my acquisition of clients could go better. And like with friends, my clients always come from the cold approach, never from relationships leading to more relationships through meeting friends of friends or business referrals.

So, the truth is I'm lonely and desperate, and the problem affects my friendships (one close friend living abroad and acquaintances having less time and motivation to meet up as they're starting families and so on), romantic life (one long-term relationship in my life), and income (I've quit a job with no client contact to force myself into being my own salesman). Pervasive and persistent, indeed.

Perhaps the most frustrating problem that I've had in getting better is the difficulty of getting feedback on social interactions. If something goes wrong, the person doesn't answer the phone or emails, but it's hard to know whether I did or said something maladapted, especially when going to such things as "odd prosody" that people don't normally think about consciously.

I've looked at options and tried whatever seemed to be somewhat promising for many years now, but not with much luck so far.

* Professional psychology was pretty much worthless. I've went through quite a variety of therapists and psychiatrists over the past fifteen years, with some highlights listed here:
- A psych services counselor in college telling me that he doesn't know what more I could do other than maybe join yet another club
- Counseling services in grad school doing endless talk and journal writing with me about how depressed I feel about being lonely, yet not offering any intervention to make me less lonely, and also giving me antidepressants. I later got to see the psychiatrist's notes, and her very first observation was "odd prosody" without ever mentioning this to me. Then she came up with a different tentative diagnosis in her notes each meeting, some of them rather far-fetched and none of them actually meaningfully informing treatment.
- Various psychiatrists giving me pretty much every antidepressant and stimulant approved for sale in the U.S. at some point. I learned that antidepressants don't work for me and prescription stimulants don't make me feel better than a triple espresso would. I gave up on that approach after having gone through pretty much all the obvious substances and a psychiatrist telling me that my problem is situational: Most people who spent their lives unsuccessfully trying to connect with other people would be rather down, and there's likely no pill to fix that.
- A really famous psychologist who founded an entire subfield telling me that "there are problems in life that have no solution" and concluding that he couldn't help me. He once called me "little professor" as a term of endearment (he was in his 70s and I in my 20s)--when I asked what he meant, he said that his grandfather used to call him that, but he could see why that rang some bells about everything I desperately don't want to be.

* Improv theater. One of the more helpful things I tried. The problem is, of course, that I suck at it, and progress over the years was rather slow. I make a really great announcer for improv shows deliver monologues in a confident bass voice: "And, now, ladies and gentlemen, let's play a game! Three of our actors will...etc. etc." Once it goes from monolog to dialog, I don't do quite as well, and somehow my "yes, and" either degrades into a "yes, but" or "Heh?" or unspontaneous thinking about a "yes, and".

* Pickup instruction. Despite the cheesiness of some companies' Web sites, some of the programs were actually about the best attempts at teaching "high-functioning" adults socialization skills, small talk, and so on that I've seen. Some instructors admitted to me, though, that my problem seemed a bit different from most other students', and one even suggested Asperger's.

* Going to bars and other situations where I can talk to new people, or even chatting up that cute girl on the street. Definitely better than sitting at home and crying about my loneliness, but rather difficult even for people with good social skills.

So, what I've tried so far doesn't really seem to work that well. I'm motivated enough I'd do most anything for better social skills. I'll put in whatever time, dedication, pain, and money it takes, but there just don't seem to be any promising programs. Heck, if there was a promising psychosurgery (which there isn't, so don't worry) I'd sign up for it in a country still doing that at the risk of waking up a vegetable instead of a charmer. The somewhat more "serious" programs out there all seemed to be aimed at children and at people much less functioning in the world that I am--my problem isn't how to order in a restaurant or pay at a supermarket, but it sure feels just as severe as far as my ability to lead a fulfilling life is concerned.

Thus: ASD + Extroversion = Out of Luck? Is my best shot somehow to try to talk myself out of being social and convince myself that I'd *like* a desk job in some dark hole with not much personal contact and no client contact and that I'd *like* to spend my weekends alone? Or is there still hope? Any suggestions for what I might try next?

this is not a global solution, just a tiny piece of the puzzle. a book I found helpful is "the fine art of small talk" by debra fine.

I suspect that I started out pretty middle-of-the-road on the introvert/extrovert continuum, but repeatedly getting in trouble from saying whatever comes to mind like an extrovert, forced me to "think to talk" much more and be more of an introvert.

I still get some jealous feelings when I hear large groups of people talking and laughing it up, but have nonetheless enjoyed having deep, thoughtful, slower-paced "introvert" conversation with just one or two people.

So I guess I'm fine being an introvert, then! In the past I've tried to act more extroverted mostly because that's what I thought society expected of me...

Not out of luck, but not an easy life.

I've come to realize that I might actually be more on the extrovert side of things than I ever realized.........which would be a shock to me. Of course, some of this board say that's not possible, and that I must be a "straw Aspie" (my favorite insult).

I own that book. I own about 4 yards on the bookshelf about the topic.



Doesn't make sense. Autism-spectrum disorders are about reading other people and presenting to them, not lack of desire to interact with them. Of course, disappointment experienced in interactions might lead to reduced interest, so on average you'd expect more introversion, but the guy who persistently talks to everyone, though in a loud, monotonic voice and with topics no one cares about, surely is on the spectrum as much as the one who retreats from any interaction with people.

Agreed.

Truth be told, I'm interested to find out what books you'd use for small-talk.

I think the golden path might be skipping followship skills and jumping to the good stuff of low-key leadership, combined with the zen trick of seeming to care less about each particular social interaction by actually caring less about each particular interaction. Kind of like a professional poker player cares about good percentage play and being open to reads but cares less about the outcome of each particular hand.

I remember when I was 21 reading the book with the racy title "Brief Encounters" and I think the very first chapter was "Gentle De-peopling" and it was really genius, how to let people go in a decent way, and thereby being more confident about being open to people who are different and taking some chances. Similar to the idea, got to be able to say no to people wrong for you, and then you're open to say yes to people right for you.

And going to bars by yourself, like you say, difficult even for people with good social skills. And when you say you are your own salesman, I take it you are both advertising the professional services and providing them. That's difficult, doubly so almost, a lot of different entrepreneurial hats.

It sounds like you may like colleagues, equal to yourself in mental power and intense interests. One thing to think about, if there are things you want to change about the world, is activism. And I don't mean joining a dopey group likely to be badly organized. I mean starting and leading your own group. And take a page from Ronald Reagan and get good at delegating, as long as the person is going in the broadly right direction. And also the business principle of catching your people doing something right. Maybe the best book on activism I've come across is "Henry Spira: Ethics Into Action" by Peter Singer, which is about animal rights but is really applicable to anything.

And for your business, maybe hiring a sales person where hopefully this person is honest enough so that people don't feel oversold. And then I think hiring addition professional people in architecture or accounting or safety engineering or whatever it is, is relatively easy. Of course, all this is risky and please don't blame me if it doesn't work out.

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I would be interested in what you mean by odd prosody. I have a nasal voice which some people stereotype as gay, although I really think it's miles away from any stereotypical "gay" voice. Just shows how limited categories some people have.

I took a class entitled "Voice for the Actor" which included Fitzmaurice Tremoring Voicework. Suppose to put us in touch with natural resonance in our voices. I don't know about
that. But at times in the group exercise, I think I experienced really great alpha wave meditation.

I was just looking at the bookshelf I have dedicated to that topic, and the sad thing is, none of it spoke to me that much as something I'd recommend to someone finding himself in a similar situation.

Some of the better ones:
- Polsky: Let's Improvise
- Cialdini: Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion.
- Bolton: People Skills
- LaRuina: The Natural Art of Seduction
- Lederman: The 11 Laws of Likability.

I don't want to dismiss all the airport books on how to be likable, lovable, and sell more as complete snake oil, but at least none of them really has spoken to my problem yet. The umpteenth sales, small talk, or seduction tip won't do much for my ability read subtle clues from people's communication, instantaneously and intuitively adjust to them, and respond with equally subtle clues of my own. And that seems to be the ability that's not taught but taken for granted as a prerequisite by all these methods.

I have been told in improv theater that I'm more convincing in roles of authority (though I suspect it might be not the authority but the structure that comes with such roles as cop). Still, it's somewhat sad to be a self-appointed leader with no followers. I do try to get in as many throwaway interactions where I don't have to care much about the outcome as possible--for that, the bar are great.

There is something about your tip about not caring. When was in grad school and I started teaching undergrads, I cared a great deal, really prepared, fought with the professor for more favorable grade distributions for my students, and the students hated me. Positively hated me, tried to get out of my sections, reviewed me as "condescending" and an extremely mean and tough grader. When I stopped caring, didn't read the books the students were assigned anymore, and gave everyone who deserved it a C- or worse, that got much better. I'm not so sure whether one can actually build relationships that way--my goal really was to minimize the chances of some students hating me, because students who hate you can hurt you much more than students who love you can help you.



I've thought about it, but if I relied on another person for building relationships I could as well give up and again become an employee somewhere. Whoever controls the client relationship owns the business, no matter what the legal ownership structure is. So in that case, the person I'd hire could essentially set his own salary (and thus mine) by threatening to walk and take the relationships he built with him (and with a non-compete agreement I could perhaps sue, but that hardly brings the client back). The primary reason I started venturing out on my own was that I want to build the customer relationship and that I likely won't get a sales or partner or client-interaction job (as opposed to one dealing with subject-matter expertise and no client contact) in my field since, well, I don't actually have many client relationships I could bring into that job and some people seem to view me as off-putting to clients.



Hard to tell. I tried recording myself, but that, of course, makes one self-conscious and changes everything. I also live in a state where both parties to a conversation need to consent to recording it. I got that "odd prosody" note from a psychiatrist who never bothered to mention it to me. I also got some student reviews like "funny voice inflection." I think the two things that I can identify is that sometimes I let the melody of a sentence creep up instead of confidently going down toward the sentence's end, and sometimes I can put excessive melody into a sentence that'd be more appropriate for a large audience than for a small group. There might be more to it. I've talked to a couple speech therapists, but they don't really seem to deal with or have a plan for adults who want to remove unspecified oddness from their voices.

The Secher Nbiw? I see what you did there....

I think the poker comparision is fairly on point. At a certain point, you can be relatively comfortable with the percentage of a particular tactic (conversional piece, small talk topic, etc.), because you realize that you'll yield enough positive outcomes to make a living. And just like Aardvark's example above, sometimes you get a "read" that allows you to understand what the other person wants/needs/desires.

My default mode is intorversion, but that's only around people in general. Around people I'm comfortable with, I can be very chatty.

I dunno if you want a big group of friends, because I don't. I do need close friends though, or I start cooking in my own juices. I find I need people who understand me - I tell them that I'm not brilliant with social skills and I occasionally say inappropriate things. They just chalk it up to everyone being unique, if they're worth talking to. If they're not willing to put that effort in on their end, I figure they're too closed-minded to be friends with me, anyway.

So, I don't know much about small-talk because I socialise with people who don't expect it from me. Granted, those people aren't very numerous.

I find being quiet and polite around 'non-initiates' to my weirdness helps with stuff like work. Would 'selective extroversion' work for you?

Me too. But then again, I know if they suddenly asked me to join them, I'd run for the hills.

I don't. I chat them up. But that can be a fairly advanced exercise even for people who are good at it.

I lived in Las Vegas for two years and tried to supplement my income by playing live table poker. I came out ever so slightly ahead, but way less than what I would have made working minimum wage.

If I talked at the poker table, I found it eroded my game. So, I tried not to talk, but then go over to the sports book next door, where they had big TVs and big comfortable chairs and maybe just ask someone as I was sitting down, 'How's the game going?' And about one time out of three, the person was in a talkative mood.*

I also sometimes struck up conversations waiting for a table before poker.

And I had some great conversations. I remember talking with a paramedic from around Virginia. And I remember talking with one older man about screenwriting and saying that, at least in the category of drama, I thought 'Schindler's List' was one of the greatest movies of all time, and he had met Helen's son!

But---even with great conversations, I found that talking with a stranger, 45 minutes is about the max and then it tends to bog down. And 20 minutes might be closer to ideal.

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As far as speech, I think an acting coach might be a better bet than a professional speech therapist. I mean, the professional therapist has a relatively narrow range. Whereas the speech coach for actors has experience with removing or adding a Southern accent, etc, etc, etc. A much broader range, and knowing artists and their quirks, even if they haven't really heard of the Asperger's-Autism Spectrum before, might be pretty open to the idea, I hope so.

* SociallyChallenged, it sounds like you're pretty good at these kinds of conversations, too. And we might be able to help our fellow members of WrongPlanet in this regard. I'm a big proponent of keeping it simple and maybe the other person is in a talkative mood and maybe they aren't, and either way is okay. And a lot of so-called "social skills training" doesn't seem to understand this point.