Theory of mind

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hi,
I'd like to know more about how much theory of mind plays a part in a diagnosis for asperger's.
Are there any specific tests for theory of mind that are done as part of the assessment, or are there specific questions asked that could point to a difference in/lack of theory of mind.
How relevant theory of mind is in a diagnosis of asperger's in a high IQ young adult, and are there any common reasons for a mis-diagnosis regarding theory of mind.

How much has theory of mind played a part in your assessement, and how did it influence the diagnosis (if it did).

thankyou.

I'm not aware if they test for it in adults, because the only test that I know of for it is for children and most adults with AS have gained the particular knowledge on the Sally and Anne Test. You can take it here.

I'm 45 and just failed the test.

I was given 'clinical vignettes', where I needed to explain if anything awkward occurred, what was awkward, and why did the person do it if it was, for each story.

Theory of Mind was a necessary but reasonably small part of my diagnosis.

However, ToM difficulties, doesn't mean that that you can't come up with any answers - you can have ToM difficulties without "failing". It also takes into account whether you arrive at answers intuitively or after analysis.

thankyou.
I am appreciating all your imput,
thanks again.

i find theory of mind not to be a very useful concept. however i have very mild aspergers. my theory of mind is generally like an NT

"theory of mind" as i understand it, is "knowing" why a person is thinking what they are thinking, and being able to partially anticipate what a person will say next based upon the direction their conversation is "sensed" to be heading.

i can not predict anything a person will say next, and so when they say it, i have to think carefully about it, and i often can not make the connection between what they are saying now to what they said just a few seconds before. i can not see or predict their mental sequence, and so i am always at the tail end of their words, and i shake my head and divest myself of the situation if someone talks rapidly past the point where i can understand why they said what they said.

i think that my "theory of mind" capacity is significantly impaired by my lack of mirroring capacity.

i feel no "influences" from any other humans. i do what i want, and i think what i think, and i be as i will. i never feel "attuned" to anyone, and so my "heart" always remains with me.


when people near me yawn or laugh, i do not feel like yawning or laughing.
when people near me break out into hysterical laughter over something i did not hear, or otherwise found unimpressive, i feel unmoved from my original disinterest.

when people almost faint over their passionate attitudes concerning sports results, i am sterile with disinterest.

i do not feel the "happy shiny people holding hands" thing, and i ignore it.

I think the Sally & Anne test is flawed, because when asked
"where will Sally first look for the item",
it is reasonable to interpret the question as,
"where will Sally look for the item (after she notices that it's not in the basket)"
because when someone mentions "look for" to me, I often associate that with "searching for" something.

I'm sure even as a young kid I would have realized that Sally had no knowledge of the transfer from basket to box, hence would first attempt to retrieve the item from the basket. After noticing it's not where she left it, she will then start *looking* for it ; and the first place she will *then* look, is in the box.

Although I know in my head that Sally will look where she left it, my first thought was "in the box." I forgot all about Sally once she left.

So does this mean I can't think outside of the box?

lol. now i know where it is

'Little girl says she wants a white rabbit to play with, gets a boring encyclopedia for Christmas, says she likes it. Is she happy.'

[quote="Chris71"]I think the Sally & Anne test is flawed, because when asked
"where will Sally first look for the item",
it is reasonable to interpret the question as,
"where will Sally look for the item (after she notices that it's not in the basket)"
because when someone mentions "look for" to me, I often associate that with "searching for" something.

I'm sure even as a young kid I would have realized that Sally had no knowledge of the transfer from basket to box, hence would first attempt to retrieve the item from the basket. After noticing it's not where she left it, she will then start *looking* for it ; and the first place she will *then* look, is in the box.[/quote

I think you've hit the nail on the head (pardon the figure of speech, my Ohio friend/cousin-in-law says that a lot).

If Sally and Anne know each other maybe Sally knows that Anne is a thief and will go straight to the box for her ball when she comes back.

I have terrible ToM and cannot imagine what other people will do even now I am an adult.

You could think that. From what I gather this young ASD group do not synthesize or are not hung/torn on differing outcomes. It's simply following the ball with one's senses.

To develop it or having just enough of it, it comes down to being around people on a daily basis with interaction. To make mistakes with it and learn. It's really learning small talk and the motive behind it. People live their lives through the eyes of one another, and imagining it this way one can wing it. To me it's a matter of thinking in this social mode or directing my attention to it. From there I can see it with my minds eye. It will never be intuitive because this way of communicating isn't built in.It's abstract.

But, I will say I have some " NT" in me. I'm glad to see people doing well and will even 'high five' 'em; and hug them to see how they are doing.

I'm right at the edge of seeing it both ways.

I did this too. I knew what the test was and I knew the answer, and yet when I read it, my first split-second thought was that she'd look in the box. Wow. And I want to be a freaking psychologist. This could be bad...

I have a fair bit of trouble with that. I find it hard to comprehend what others say and than I end up taking things to heart, because of my TOM or lack of. That's just a minor glitch in the big picture, though. It's a glitch that I need to work on, but my positives outweigh my negatives. I know it's not like this for everyone, and a lot of my fellow members would rather be normal. There was a time that I was annoyed by the Positive Thinking approach that my college professors were using to motivate us to get into the job force. I tend to forget that sometimes. I'm just rambling on. I haven't been on here steady for weeks. I apologize.