Are you threadening me?

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About a year ago I became obsessed with people who argue and arguments in general. They just never made the slightest bit of sense to me. Not because I think people should hug all day but because people's sloppy, incomplete speech leaves giant spaces for misinterpretation. The English language's missing pieces are also hugely to blame.

Anyway, I've mapped out tons and tons of arguments and interrogated many many people about every detail of every screaming match they have ever had. I really became an expert. I could not believe how fights about wildly different subjects all had the same pattern and could all be traced back/avoided/solved buy just a handful of simple tweaks in language.

If anyone has an example of a reoccurring argument they have with friends/family, I would really like to hear about it. I really think I may be able to help you win/resolve/understand it. I hate knowing people fight for no reason. If I can improve anyone's life in just the slightest way, then you'll be doing me a huge favor. I mean it. This is my stimm. Helping people in a literal way.

Tell me both sides of the argument, with as much detail and verbatim dialogue as possible and I think I can tell you what went wrong or how to get your point to sink in. There is a science. And if I can't, so be it. At least you'll still get to vent. I can at least tell you what phrases started the argument and you can better avoid it.

"It's no use debating with the person, they'll never change their mind" is really never true and an obvious self fulfilling prophecy. So if that is your general stance on other people's different opinions, then I can't help. Because you've just made certain that the argument will never end.

Is this the kind of thing you mean?

My son's dad is upset that he has a diagnosis. He does not deny that he has issues. He just thinks it will somehow "come back to haunt him" like if he wants to join the military or something. He is always thinking about "the future." He was willing to keep us living in a bad neighborhood with an even worse school district where my kids' educational needs could not be met so that he could "save for college."

My concern is the present. I am worried he will never finish high school or be overcome with stress and anxiety without the support he needs. I'd love for him to go to college, but I am not stupid. I know he cannot get to college without first getting through middle school and high school. He needs way more help than his old school could give him. Sure, I'd love to leave all possible doors open in his future. But right now I need to focus on getting him to his future.

My younger brother hates arguments/debates. Try to argue a point and he will just stop what he's doing and walk off. Even a mild suggestion that he disagrees with draws a similar reaction.

It's gotten to the point where I can hardly deal with him.

Surfman! There is no situation in the universe that is not made better by Kirk and Spock. Thank you Sir.

InThisTogether, Thanks for responding. I just need to ask a few questions, but right away there are a few things I am pretty sure apply.

First, you both clearly are not looking to be right in the situation, but to just find out what is best for your son. I'm sure either of you would gladly concede your individual arguments if you were find the opposing side in the best interest of your child right? So any yelling/arguing/animosity that occurs can really only be from some misinterpretation. You guys are arguing the same standpoint.

One thing to keep in mind is that in any state of worry, a person will way way way more risk adverse than reward seeking. Like missing out on winning $100 dollars is bearable but the idea of having $100 stolen from you is terrifying. Does that make sense? If you describe things like "without a diagnosis he is at risk of X happening", as opposed to advertising the benefits of something.

Where does the argument happen exactly? I mean what comments spark the fighting? What opinion do you present that he opposes? What are his reasons? In what way do you justify your opinions to him?

Wondering about your thread title: Is "threadening" the same as "threatening" but in the context of a forum thread?

Before you state that you can tell where it went wrong, I need to point out something that may have been missed in your analysis:

It may have NOT gone wrong. Neurotypicals LIKE to argue irrationally.

This statement comes from a lot of research. I have great friends that understand my condition (as well as any NTs can understand us). In my quest to "become human" as we have all joked, they have shared many insights into their modes of thought... This has been useful for me in evolving my understanding and they have expressed that it has helped them understand themselves.

That being said... they have explained that the outcome of the argument is rarely the reason FOR the argument. In some cases, it is a contest for emotional dominance. In others, it is a necessary emotional outburst, designed to relieve neurological pressure. (real or imagined)

I have a tendency to admit (instantly) when I was wrong. I also have a policy of not making any statement I am not 100% sure of. I have been advised that this is infuriating for NTs.

You are trying to apply logic to an irrational behavior.

My Significant Other stated that Kevin Smith was right when he wrote, "Understanding can only be reached through confrontation."

Feralucce. Most of what you say is spot on. My mind thinks of it as a cost benefit analysis(as it does everything) The chance of someone being helped a little, even if small, is worth the risk of the few minutes I spent typing being a waste of time. Not to mention the off chance some random other person reads it and takes something away from it. Also a small chance, but it's not like my time would have been well spent otherwise.

I actually get confused by people who complain about receiving too much advice. All possibly helpful insight should be brought to light in any situation. Just don't be rude while giving advice and be discerning when hearing advice. You know what I mean? I keep hearing how advice is perceived as impolite and people should just listen quietly when others are speaking about problems.

I mean I could complain to my toaster if all I needed was something to sit quietly while I spoke. Not to mention, my friends never reward me with delicious toast after a long session of venting.

Two things about logic. (Seemingly) irrational things happen. But subsystems of irrational stuff can be themselves understood in a larger trend. Example: When I push this button, this seemingly irrational behavior occurs 70% of the time. When I pull this lever, erratic behavior occurs only 10% of the time.

The same concept is seen in computers. Something may be crashing the computer, you may not know what process is causing it, but you can know for certain that its something in your email program and definitely not in your Internet browser.

Most people don't know anything about the code level processes in thier computer. But when they have computer crashes, they don't just say "well I'll never understand the deepest inner workings of this thing so I'll just let keep crashing". Yet people are able to still fix problems with their computers at home without having to learn programming. This leave only one conclusion, that unbelievably complex systems do not have to be fully understood to be fixed. Just a modest level of compartmentalism can provide simple answers to seemingly impossible problems. Human emotions are one of those seemingly impossible to understand systems. But complete understanding is not what is needed.

Before anyone try to shoot down that analogy, realize its air tight. I promise.

Humans are way more complex than computers, but both surpass the threshold level of complexity that is within a single humans ability to understand, therefore will have an equatable aspect of irrationality to someone, because past this threshold, things are not understood and the level of "just how not understood they are" is irrelevant.

And please no one say "I know tons about how computers work". I am talking about billions of binary, hexidecimal processes that are happening constantly. Which no person is capable grasping at once. Not the stick of memory you added yourself when your wild Sims parties started slowing down the framerate.

Keep in mind, all things were irrational before someone applied logic to them. Actually thats the whole reason someone started thinking logically about these things to begin with. Weather, sickness, crops growing. I say instead of deeming all things that we don't immediately understand as answerless, we should first note how comedically arrogant it is to think.

"I don't know the answer so the only reasonable explanation is that it is unknowable." That kind of blind, desperate, delusion of grandeur wouldn't even fly at a pro wrestling match full of 17-year old trust fund kids.

I urge people to just think about each others' problems and feelings a bit more. Maybe finding a bit of incentive in the fact that people CAN be helped. And selflessness is not just a worthless effort that can be omitted because it will only be vaporized by this giant irrationality monster of people's pride.

Toast time. Now I'm in the toast mood.

Feralucce: There is a position in academia that the reason humans are so intelligent is not so we can find truth but so we can find arguments supporting our views.

http://www.sjsu.edu/people/anand.vaidya ... perber.pdf

I always think of NTs when I hear that theory. And since NTs happen to be a much higher percentage of the population than aspies, I can see why the argumentative theory has so much support.

Well, we rarely fight in the yelling and screaming sense. I am not one to yell and scream much and he tends to walk off when it gets that heated. But usually what starts the debate is me stating that I am taking him to the neurologist or that the school psychologist wants to work with him on something or I explain some of his behavior in light of his diagnoses. He opposes my son having a diagnosis or doing anything outside of the ordinary for kids his age regarding seeking help. His reason is that it will "come back to haunt him one day." I justify my opinion by saying that I cannot be concerned about his future right now because he is struggling and needs help in the present. I believe that if we don't get him the support and help he needs now, it will likely not matter if he has a $100K college fund. He needs to make it through middle school first, and he is having a difficult time even with extra support. I do not think his dad understands how difficult it can be to be our son. He is very aware that he is different and all he really wants is to blend in. His dad seems to think that he can somehow "try harder" and just "press through" it. He doesn't seem to get that many of his issues are not something he can help. It's not as if he can "try harder" and stop having ADHD and NVLD. If it were a matter of trying hard or wishing it away, he would have already conquered his diagnoses. Ignoring today's reality for a dream that may never be a reality is foolish, IMHO.

This worked out quite well for me a number of years ago.

I was working in the computer department of a medium sized engineering company in Houston. One day as I was walking down the hall, I ran into two of the midlevel managers. These particular midlevel managers were the company's hatchet men. When the company needed to fire a bunch of people, these were the two who did it. When the company needed to fix one of their overseas operations, they would send those two in with full authorization to do what was needed.

Their names were Manuel and Steve. When we met in the hall, Manuel asked me what I was working on. I replied that I had just fixed a problem I had been working on the last three or four days. Manuel then asked who created the problem. I was surprised by the question and answered that I had created the problem a few days earlier when I did something. (I know longer remember what the problem actually was, how I created it, and how I fixed it.)

Years later Manuel told me that when I admitted that I was responsible for creating the problem that there was nothing that I could have ever said that would have impressed Steve more. He said that in the entire company, there wasn't but two or three people who would have admitted to creating the problem and that everyone else would do whatever they had to do to blame the problem on someone else.

The two reported to the senior vice president of the company. I think that they told him about it because from then on, he seemed to feel that he could trust me to do what I was supposed to do and not play games like many others would.

Interesting thread.

One thing I'm having difficulty understanding, and this may not be related to what you're asking here, but I'm going to try anyway - in the ADHD community forum I'm a member of their is animosity between people that view their ADHD as positive (either extremely so or just in a few symptoms) and those who see it as nothing but impairment. Now when someone shares their story of dealing with the symptoms better but seeing some positive things about it the people who view it as completely negative will attack them verbally. They will even go as far to say they do not have ADHD or are delusional.
Now I at first responding rather levelly to a positive poster by saying 'well that's great that worked for you but it isn't true for most people.' Then slowly, when the positive poster explained why they saw it positive despite their impairments I started to understand them more.
Even though this was explained and understood by those with ADHD who could only view it as negative, they still felt they had a right to be insulted by what people said. You see, in their mind they think people are saying they somehow failed to overcome their ADHD because they don't feel the same way. Those words have never been spoken in any one argument I've read.
I basically gave up and confessed to my lack of social awareness to deal with this and told them to not blame people for saying something insulting that was never intended to be. And then I left that thread forever.
But why would people who had it explained to them that they were not deliberately being criticised, still feel insulted by people seeing a disorder as positive? One such poster has said a few times that he wants to see all posting about the the positivity of ADHD banned by his logic that it will start flame wars. And others agree that it should be stifled. There are a handful of us that think everyone should have a right to voice their opinions.

I think I may side with Feralucce on this one. They are just venting their feelings irrationally. But I still don't understand why they put the blame on these innocuous posters for insulting them. The poor positive posters are just so excited to share how much better they feel and they don't think far enough to see the many kinds of reactions they could get. I've never seen this type of backlash on Wrong Planet. Well, I don't get around to reading all the threads but I think we allow a balance of positive and negative feelings toward our symptoms. Even the completely positive people who see it as just a different way of thinking don't get torn apart compared to what I've seen on this ADHD forum.
This type of emotional reaction truly confuses me.

I'm sorry for veering off-topic, but when I saw this post I couldn't help but think of anything but Beavis and Butthead lol.

Ok concerning the situation described, his opinions now make more sense. His negative feelings come up when he is reminded of the situation, rather than other types of arguments where the person is offended by something said or takes objection with the other persons actions, etc.

This is why his side of the argument sounds so illogical and not thought out. He (understandably) really hates the idea of his son having to go through this/be autistic. He (understandably) does not want or know how to deal with it. The diagnosis cant be taken back or anything. Just to reiterate, completely understandable feelings on his part, not to be confused with non caring.
The reason his arguments are so unreasonable given the situation is because they ARE truly unreasonable. This is not because he is stupid or anything of the sort. It's because he knows he is feeling scared and angry, but his mind could never feel right settling on the conclusion that he just plain hates the fact that his son has autism. That thought seems way too close to "i hate my son". But, He knows he does not hate his son, or blame him, so it's confusing. When unable to hide/understand his agitation, his mind is going to come up with SOMETHING to explain his disagreement with what's going on. He's not lying or making excuses, this seems to happen sub-consciously in people. (And it happens in so so many arguments. Usually arguments where someone gets called "crazy")Being there really is no reasonable other side to this, he won't find much of an argument. His love for his son just makes the idea "i hate having an autistic son" seem ridiculous. Let me know if that makes sense.

I completely absolutely understand that I do not know all the details of your families experience with autism. I am not assuming anything or saying anyone is not trying their hardest. (The fact you're on this site proves you are) But, Given the information up to this point, it really really seems like the thing causing the most grief for everyone is his opinion of autism.

I'm sure that sounds unbelievably stupid but, I mean it. My Aspergers can ruin certain aspects of my life, sure, but I LOVE the way my mind works. I can think at light speed about things that interest me, and I am quite impressive at certain things. All the while, being useless at other things.
I don't know if my experience is anything like your son's, but I stand by autism being a good thing in a lot of ways. I think as long as a few base skills are given special attention, like socializing, a mind like his CAN be something his dad would brag about to all the other dads. I love hearing about famous autistics/aspergers cases. Bob Dylan is my favorite. Newton is a rumored one too.
Anyway, I feel like his dad knows that autistics are often very remarkable, but needs reminding. He has only been caused grief by this weird situation and probably just needs to hear about the things his child is accelerating at. Known yet or not, there are going to be things your son will be so good at, it will be scary. Dads just wanna brag a little. No big deal. Sons can make their dads proud in all kinds of surprising ways. Catching a football is overrated.

Tell me if any of this seems to be helpful, seems like complete BS, seems partially helpful, anything. I just have concluded that this is the most likely case. I couldn't care less about being right I just want something to help your situation.

Thanks,

I'm the same, Brock. I can see if something is illogical straight away, if it is something that interests me. I find arguing about things like whether clothes are nice, or hairstyles, pointless. My wife asked for my opinion on her new shoes. I said 'but they are just shoes'. She got a bit upset and pushed for me to say they were nice. I just repeated my first answer. Stupid arguments at work used to piss me off as well.

So do you have a plan for when that happens again? I mean you are correct. Clothes are a strange issue to say the least. I feel like she could only be offended if she DESIGNED the shoes. Otherwise it's not a put down to her. But anyway.

I know you'll probably get asked again. Do you just lie and move on or do you find the logical reason for an answer one way or the other?

My life is sort of benefitting from learning about other aspergers' ideas. Forgive my nosiness.