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if I hear about Temple Grandin one more time...

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Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2
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16 Dec 2012, 3:50 pm

my therapist gave my family a book titled "Solutions for Adults with Asperger Syndrome" by Juanita P. Lovett, PhD.

I have no objection to the book, (actually I recommend it) but this is like the 5th time someone has brought up Temple Grandin as a famous "high achieving" aspie, and it drives me nuts.

her success is based on understand and empathizing with animals, which she utilized to create environments that were less overstimulating. this produced passive cattle so they could be slaughtered with less effort. she is praised for creating "humane slaughterhouses".

as I see it, there are two options here:

1) cattle are not morally significant, and killing them is ok.
2) cattle are morally significant, and you shouldn't be killing them at all.

point of logic: caring about treating something humanely is an implicit acknowledgement of its moral significance and ergo incompatible with a mindset that endorses its slaughter.

--

so ok, I'm a vegetarian aspie, and I don't want to trot out all the arguments here, but I really don't understand why people who feel no moral compunction against killing and eating an animal feel like slaughtering it nicely is somehow praiseworthy. am I crazy here? I feel like both meat-eaters and vegetarians ought to agree that either an animal is a thing and you don't invest time and money in treating things you are about to kill humanely, or an animal is not a thing and that "humane slaughter" is a contradiction in terms...


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16 Dec 2012, 3:54 pm

No, I do not agree with your conclusion; however, I'm not in the mood for a debate right now.

I'm also going to guess this topic is going to get punted over to PPR.


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16 Dec 2012, 4:10 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
No, I do not agree with your conclusion; however, I'm not in the mood for a debate right now.

I'm also going to guess this topic is going to get punted over to PPR.


Was gonna make both of those points!


Thankyou.

Alot of people on aspie sites get tired of hearing about that novel about the aspie kid who solves that dog murder mystery (forget the title/author), and I could imagine the same might true about "hearing about temple grandin". But you're launching into a heavy philosophical debate about veganism.

Your notion is equivalent to saying " either dont incarcerate convicted criminals at all(let em stay free)- or go ahead and torture and starve them in prisons all that you want and dont fuss over 'human treatment of prisoners'"

The concensus is that humans need to eat meat(like the concensus is that we have to incarcerate some folks) -whether you agree with it or not. So you should be commending society for atleast trying to kill animals in more humane way. Maybe someday we may outgrow meat eating all together, but like slavery in ancient Greece- that day is a ways off.



Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2
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16 Dec 2012, 4:20 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Your notion is equivalent to saying " either dont incarcerate convicted criminals at all(let em stay free)- or go ahead and torture and starve them in prisons all that you want and dont fuss over 'human treatment of prisoners'"
no, it's not. criminals are people who started out with rights and had some of them suspended because of violation (real or imagined) of some law. animals start out with no rights whatsoever and their treatment is based entirely on an arbitrary demand for their flesh.
naturalplastic wrote:
The concensus is that humans need to eat meat(like the concensus is that we have to incarcerate some folks) -whether you agree with it or not.
the consensus of the medical community is nothing of the sort. I could refer you to the position paper of the American Dietetics Association if you'd read it, which strongly suggests ovo-lacto vegetarianism is healthier than any meat consumption and uses decades of peer-reviewed study with huge sample groups to reach that conclusion. if you mean social consensus, the social consensus in the USA is also that climate change is a hoax. reality is not subject to vote. nor, incidentally, are rights.
naturalplastic wrote:
So you should be commending society for atleast trying to kill animals in more humane way. Maybe someday we may outgrow meat eating all together, but like slavery in ancient Greece- that day is a ways off.
comparing it directly to slavery is, to put it mildly, not a particularly effective support for your position.


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Last edited by Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2 on 16 Dec 2012, 4:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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16 Dec 2012, 4:23 pm

Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2 wrote:
This is like the 5th time someone has brought up Temple Grandin as a famous "high achieving" aspie, and it drives me nuts.


Well, honestly, I think she has achieved great things in her life, she knows what she´s talking about, but I simply don´t like her. I might have some Aspie issues with looking at her face, I don´t know, but to me, the woman is repulsive and androgynous (sorry, I know there is no point in saying that) and highly unpleasant to me. It´s probably just my problem because most Aspies loveher. I respect her achievments, but that´s all. I don´t like her as a human. She scares the s**t out of me.


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Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2
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16 Dec 2012, 4:24 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
No, I do not agree with your conclusion; however, I'm not in the mood for a debate right now.

I'm also going to guess this topic is going to get punted over to PPR.
apologies if I posted in the wrong board. I'm still not sure what is an is not appropriate in each of them.


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16 Dec 2012, 4:29 pm

humans don't need to eat meat. indeed, they live healthier and longer of they don't eat meat.



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16 Dec 2012, 4:31 pm

I agree with the topics title. Thats great she's had so much sucess but it really is annoying to constintley hear about her all the damn time, I mean maybe I should start talking to horses so everyone will think i'm amazing! :roll:



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16 Dec 2012, 4:32 pm

humans don't need to eat meat. in fact, humans live more healthily and longer of they don't eat meat.



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16 Dec 2012, 4:33 pm

richardbenson wrote:
I agree with the topics title. Thats great she's had so much sucess but it really is annoying to constintley hear about her all the damn time, I mean maybe I should start talking to horses so everyone will think i'm amazing! :roll:


Exactly!! !


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16 Dec 2012, 4:45 pm

Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2 wrote:
so ok, I'm a vegetarian aspie, and I don't want to trot out all the arguments here, but I really don't understand why people who feel no moral compunction against killing and eating an animal feel like slaughtering it nicely is somehow praiseworthy. am I crazy here?


No, you're not crazy. This has bothered me, too, but I didn't bother making a post about it because I knew people who want to justify flesh-eating (even when whether or not they should eat flesh is not the point of the discussion) at all costs would just come up with a ton of illogical arguments about it, much like the incarcerating convicts analogy in this thread. On the other hand, maybe she did what she did just to make the slaughterers' job easier, rather than to ease the cows' suffering.



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16 Dec 2012, 4:46 pm

You cannot stop the slaughtering of cattle. Millions of people eat beef and you cannot force them to become vegetarians. Every living thing has a life cycle. We all live and we all will die. Wild animals sometimes suffer horrific deaths when captured and eaten by a predator. You cannot stop wild animals from suffering and dieing. Nature can be as cruel as it is beautiful. Life is a food chain. We all end up being consumed one way or another. Every person alive today will not be here 150 years from now. We will all be replaced by a completely new population of people. Cycles of life and death within the food chain has been the driving force of evolution,

Animal husbandry is something unique to humans. With animal husbandry, humans have control over the birth and the death (life cycle) of an animal. Some people believe that humans also have a moral obligation to see to it that those animals do not suffer and live as meaningful a life as possible. People who devote their lives to making that a reality are to be commended as heroes and don't deserve to be spoken of with contempt.
BTW I am a vegetarian.



Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2
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16 Dec 2012, 4:49 pm

starkid wrote:
Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2 wrote:
so ok, I'm a vegetarian aspie, and I don't want to trot out all the arguments here, but I really don't understand why people who feel no moral compunction against killing and eating an animal feel like slaughtering it nicely is somehow praiseworthy. am I crazy here?


No, you're not crazy. This has bothered me, too, but I didn't bother making a post about it because I knew people who want to justify flesh-eating (even when whether or not they should eat flesh is not the point of the discussion) at all costs would just come up with a ton of illogical arguments about it, much like the incarcerating convicts analogy in this thread. On the other hand, maybe she did what she did just to make the slaughterers' job easier, rather than to ease the cows' suffering.
I mean, that's what she's being paid for, right?

and thank you, I specified right up front that I don't want to debate whether or not animals have moral worth, I want to point out that pretending to care about how they are treated in mid hamburger consumption makes absolutely no sense. like, I'm a vegetarian and nearly everyone I know isn't, you don't have to agree with me, just be consistent about your own position!


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16 Dec 2012, 4:51 pm

We are omnivores. There is nothing wrong with eating meat for part of our diet.



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16 Dec 2012, 4:54 pm

If an animal kicks the bucket, I say chow down



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16 Dec 2012, 4:56 pm

Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2 wrote:
my therapist gave my family a book titled "Solutions for Adults with Asperger Syndrome" by Juanita P. Lovett, PhD.

I have no objection to the book, (actually I recommend it) but this is like the 5th time someone has brought up Temple Grandin as a famous "high achieving" aspie, and it drives me nuts.

her success is based on understand and empathizing with animals, which she utilized to create environments that were less overstimulating. this produced passive cattle so they could be slaughtered with less effort. she is praised for creating "humane slaughterhouses".

as I see it, there are two options here:

1) cattle are not morally significant, and killing them is ok.
2) cattle are morally significant, and you shouldn't be killing them at all.

point of logic: caring about treating something humanely is an implicit acknowledgement of its moral significance and ergo incompatible with a mindset that endorses its slaughter.

--

so ok, I'm a vegetarian aspie, and I don't want to trot out all the arguments here, but I really don't understand why people who feel no moral compunction against killing and eating an animal feel like slaughtering it nicely is somehow praiseworthy. am I crazy here? I feel like both meat-eaters and vegetarians ought to agree that either an animal is a thing and you don't invest time and money in treating things you are about to kill humanely, or an animal is not a thing and that "humane slaughter" is a contradiction in terms...


I tend to agree with Temple -- the cattle's reason for existence is to provide us food, but we owe them respect. I don't eat much red meat, but do eat poultry, and would be willing to pay extra to buy poultry processed through a plant she designed.

Although Temple is a shining example of what an Autistic can do with good support, not all of us have that support, nor the means to pursue our special interest(s) until they become profitable.


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