Why are some "adult milestones" harder for some?

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28 Dec 2012, 11:18 am

In the "adult outcomes" poll, I think there were three adult milestones mentioned: having friends, long-term relationship, and employment. What I've noticed is that not all of these are equally easy for everyone. Some have achieved some but not others, but there is little consistency as to which ones.

For me, employment was always easy. Friends were much more difficult, and having a long-term relationship was hardest of all (still haven't achieved anything beyond months). So employability > friends > LTR (I don't have the latter and have had very very little trouble with the first one). I know an aspie girl who is LTR > friends > employability (she has never been able to have the latter). And a guy who is friends > employability > LTR.

I want to know if anyone else has employability first and, if so/not, WHY is it easier for you to achieve some milestones than others. I think a poll here would be too complicated (9 permutations???) and confusing.

EDIT: Someone else posted a link that might be helpful that divides autism into 4 groups (http://www.awares.org/static_docs/about ... cSection=3):

Quote:

Aloof

Most frequent subtype among the lower functioning. Most high-functioning in this group are a mixture of aloof and passive. Limited language use. Copes with life using autistic routines. Most are recognised in childhood. Independence is difficult to achieve. There may be loneliness and sadness beneath the aloofness. Rain Man is an excellent example of this subgroup.

Passive

Often amiable, gentle, and easily led. Those passive rather than aloof from infancy may fit AS. More likely than the aloof to have had a mainstream education, and their psych skill profiles are less uneven. Social approaches passively accepted (little response or show of feelings). Characteristic autistic egocentricity less obvious in this group than in others. Activities are limitied and repetitive, but less so than other autistics. Can react with unexpected anger or distress. Recognition of their autism depends more on observing the absence of the social and creative aspects of normal development than the presence of positive abnormalities. The general amenability is an advantage in work, and they are reliable, but sometimes their passivity and naivete can cause great problems. If undiagnosed, parents and teachers may be disappointed they cannot keep a job at the level predicted from their schoolwork.

Active-but-odd

Can fall in any of the other groups in early childhood. Some show early developmental course of Kanner's, some show AS. Some have the characteristic picture of higher visuospatial abilities, others have better verbal scores (mainly due to wide vocabulary and memory for facts). May be specific learning disorders (e.g., numerical). School placement often difficult. They show social naivete, odd, persistent approaches to others, and are uncooperative in uninteresting tasks. Diagnosis often missed. Tend to look at people too long and hard. Circumscribed interests in subjects are common.

Stilted

Few, if any clues to the underlying subtle handicap upon first meeting. The features of AS are particularly frequent. Early histories vary. Normal range of ability with some peaks of performance. Polite and conventional. Manage well at work. Sometimes pompous and long-winded style of speech. Problems arise in family relationships, where spontaneity and empathy are required. Poor judgement as to the relative importance of different demands on their time. Characteristically pursue interests to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. May have temper tantrums or aggression if routine broken at home, but are polite at work. Diagnosis very often missed. Most attend mainstream schools. Independence achieved in most cases. This group shades into the eccentric end of normality.

I am stilted, so this might explain employability >>> friends > LTR. Someone in the passive group might have an easier time in relationships (friendships and LTR) than me while someone in the active-but-odd group likely has severe problems at work but may find a few friends or a SO who appreciates their eccentricity.

Last edited by Tyri0n on 28 Dec 2012, 2:52 pm, edited 7 times in total.

wtfid2
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28 Dec 2012, 11:24 am

Tyri0n wrote:

In the "adult outcomes" poll, I think there were three adult milestones mentioned: having friends, long-term relationship, and employment. What I've noticed is that not all of these are equally easy for everyone. Some have achieved some but not others, but there is little consistency as to which ones.

For me, employment was always easy. Friends were much more difficult, and having a long-term relationship was hardest of all (still haven't achieved anything beyond six months). So employability > friends > LTR (I don't have the latter and have had very very little trouble with the first one). I know an aspie girl who is LTR > friends > employability (she has never been able to have the latter). And a guy who is friends > employability > LTR.

I want to know if anyone else has employability first and, if so/not, WHY is it easier for you to achieve some milestones than others. I think a poll here would be too complicated (9 permutations???) and confusing.

i cant achieve any

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Trencher93
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28 Dec 2012, 11:53 am

My thought is that transaction-oriented milestones are easier to achieve than social-oriented milestones.

If someone wants to pay me to do something for them, I don't have to be the world's most social person. I give them surplus labor value and they give me money. Similarly, if I want to buy a car or whatever, it's a transaction. If my money is good, the dealer couldn't care less how social I am. And so on.

But if I see a really hot Asian girl in the bookstore with a cool scarf and nice boots (guess where I was today), it's a social transaction. What would someone who has extreme social deficits have to offer someone who is looking for social engagement and fun? I guess there needs to be a theory of surplus social value for social transactions. I happen to have great value as an employee because I know something very few people on the planet know. But I have zero value as a participant in social interactions. The same is true of religion (which is almost 100% social) and other spheres where there is no transaction at all.

Milestones could be ranked by surplus value on a continuum that stretches from pure transactions to pure social interaction. I have achieved several transaction milestones in my career, but the social milestones are something I will never achieve. Someone like me would have high transaction surplus value, but no social surplus value. Someone like a rock star would have zero transaction value (he does nothing useful to contribute to society), but has a high social value (people pay money to be around him).

This would be a fertile field of research if anyone needs a PhD thesis. Just mention me in the acknowledgements of your paper!

Tyri0n
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28 Dec 2012, 11:56 am

Trencher93 wrote:

My thought is that transaction-oriented milestones are easier to achieve than social-oriented milestones.

If someone wants to pay me to do something for them, I don't have to be the world's most social person. I give them surplus labor value and they give me money. Similarly, if I want to buy a car or whatever, it's a transaction. If my money is good, the dealer couldn't care less how social I am. And so on.

But if I see a really hot Asian girl in the bookstore with a cool scarf and nice boots (guess where I was today), it's a social transaction. What would someone who has extreme social deficits have to offer someone who is looking for social engagement and fun? I guess there needs to be a theory of surplus social value for social transactions. I happen to have great value as an employee because I know something very few people on the planet know. But I have zero value as a participant in social interactions. The same is true of religion (which is almost 100% social) and other spheres where there is no transaction at all.

Milestones could be ranked by surplus value on a continuum that stretches from pure transactions to pure social interaction. I have achieved several transaction milestones in my career, but the social milestones are something I will never achieve. Someone like me would have high transaction surplus value, but no social surplus value. Someone like a rock star would have zero transaction value (he does nothing useful to contribute to society), but has a high social value (people pay money to be around him).

This would be a fertile field of research if anyone needs a PhD thesis. Just mention me in the acknowledgements of your paper!

For you and me, yes. But not for some others, which is why I'm curious. Some people have great trouble finding and keeping a job while getting into a long-term relationship is much easier.

So you could say I fit with your transactional theory very well.

Maybe you and I fit into the "stilted" group, and others who have a harder time with the transactional milestones and an easier time with the social milestones fit into a different group.

Last edited by Tyri0n on 29 Dec 2012, 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

metaldanielle
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28 Dec 2012, 12:46 pm

For me, I am not employable because my particular manifestation of Autism makes being employed nearly impossible. I can't take in verbal information. I have severe trouble understanding instructions. I don't do well with being told what to do. Anything that bores me I just can't bring myself to do. I react badly to criticism and don't want anything to do w/ social politics in the workplace.

I have several friends, (online only, but still close). I am in a relationship, I wouldn't consider it long term yet.

I am not uber-good at relationships, (friendly or romantic) but I am able to find friends who are like me or accepting of my "quirks". Employers don't want anyone that stands out. Quirks are only accepted if they don't cause discord in the workplace and are helpful to the company. Mine are the opposite.

Friends and lovers are easier, their purpose to support you and love you. Bosses exist to spur you to work, they are not supposed to like you or be kind to you. (Though some do, of course.)

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hanyo
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28 Dec 2012, 1:50 pm

Tyri0n wrote:

In the "adult outcomes" poll, I think there were three adult milestones mentioned: having friends, long-term relationship, and employment.

I don't have any of those things and don't even want them.

AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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28 Dec 2012, 1:56 pm

Quote:

Active-but-odd

Can fall in any of the other groups in early childhood. Some show early developmental course of Kanner's, some show AS. Some have the characteristic picture of higher visuospatial abilities, others have better verbal scores (mainly due to wide vocabulary and memory for facts). May be specific learning disorders (e.g., numerical). School placement often difficult. They show social naivete, odd, persistent approaches to others, and are uncooperative in uninteresting tasks. Diagnosis often missed. Tend to look at people too long and hard. Circumscribed interests in subjects are common.

This might describe me as much as anything. But please notice there is not one word about sensory issues. It is all from the outside looking in. (That is, they are not really talking to and listening to the actual person on the spectrum.)

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28 Dec 2012, 2:37 pm

metaldanielle wrote:

That describes me to a T, almost, but I have been extremely fortunate in that I found a job that I pretty much got to teach myself how to do. I bristle at being told what to do and can't stand having anyone looking over my shoulder. And the reason I'm posting this instead of doing my job is that the project I'm working on now is about as dry as licking a chalkboard.

I have been given a lot of latitude here and nobody else is willing or able to do what I've been doing for the past 15 years, but I bet they could find somebody who's willing to try. The thing that bothers me is that these people seem to value good work habits over actual good work. I have terrible habits, like goofing off constantly, but the work I do is excellent and it's always done on time. My coworkers, on the other hand, have great work habits, but their work is horrible.

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Tyri0n
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28 Dec 2012, 2:44 pm

metaldanielle wrote:

What advice would you give to those ("stilted" individuals like myself) who have the exact opposite problem (employment being easier than friends or LTR)? I am curious as to why individuals who are possibly lower functioning than myself, according to outside evaluations, do much better than me at some of these things, so I can figure out how to fix the problem.

I have only casual friends in my current location, no one I would consider "close," and while I'm far from a virgin, I've never been in a long-term relationship, yet I've always been well employed for my level of education. I don't think I've ever been directly shut out, but I don't know how to engage NT's, so whatever relationships exists is usually very shallow and based on things like common interests, or some sort of quid pro quo.

Does disclosing yourself as someone with autism help with friends or lovers (not employers) accepting you and your quirks?

Last edited by Tyri0n on 28 Dec 2012, 3:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

wtfid2
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28 Dec 2012, 3:02 pm

Tyri0n wrote:

metaldanielle wrote:

What advice would you give to those ("stilted" individuals like myself) who have the exact opposite problem (employment being easier than friends or LTR)? I am curious as to why individuals who are possibly lower functioning than myself, according to outside evaluations, do much better than me at some of these things, so I can figure out how to fix the problem.

I have only casual friends in my current location, no one I would consider "close," and while I'm far from a virgin, I've never been in a long-term relationship, yet I've always been well employed for my level of education, gotten promoted, never been fired or dismissed, or had unusual problems at work; I'm friendly with everyone and sometimes hang out with co-workers in a casual setting but have no close relationships, which is typical for the workplace. I'm considered quiet but likeable and effective by managers but have not yet gotten to the point where I would have to assume significant leadership responsibilities (at which time the problems might begin).

Does disclosing yourself as someone with autism help with friends or lovers (not employers) accepting you and your quirks?

They are lower functioning in employment higher functioning in relationships..everyone has their strengths man.

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28 Dec 2012, 4:24 pm

I pretty much fit the description for passive pretty damn well with a dash of "active but odd". For me, I think its really hard to pin point an order. Probably in the long run, the hardest is friendships, I put so much energy into it and I really have trouble securing new friends. Employment is hard but I can keep a job as long as it doesn't require much social interaction. If the job requires customer service, I get my ass kicked. But I still need to work on employment trying to do good work while not ruffling too many feathers. As for relationships, there hard but online dating helps a lot with meeting people and I just hard to learn to stop being a psycho and well now Im good, I have a bf. Trust me, learning not to be a psycho was 5-6 yrs in the making. So I think friendship is really the only thing I can't ever someday reach a bar and relax and say i am good. Or groups of friends I suppose. i have a few steady friends and thats it. But many would say thats good enough.

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