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GrandTuringSedan
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15 Jan 2013, 9:44 pm

Back when I was misdiagnosed as having OCD, I was introduced to meditation. I worked at it as best I could and was convinced that the goals of the practice were worthy and the process was sound. I was told to censure rumination and keep my mind from persuing solutions to the thoughts that arise while I'm actually sitting.
OCD itself is thought of as a 'neurotic' substitute for solving the actual problems of life- an illegitimate preoccupation meant to spare the psyche from the anxiety of dealing with the "real" problems hidden beneath. I have since found out that my mind's central preoccuption may very well not be based on neurotic avoidance, but the fertility of the thought itself. I don't think about dimensions, math, biology, etc. in order to avoid dealing with people (as it was presented to me). These subjects are simply more satisfying and important.
This being said, I do still ruminate a lot, however I have discarded the judgement that all rumination is fruitless. To others who practice meditation- Do you think it is harder for people like myself (and possibly yourself) to allow thoughts to drift-off as they come because they're more compelling in nature than the thoughts of NTs?
Most of my thoughts are visual. When I close my eyes, I tend to see more than when they were open. Are NT thoughts are like a radio show in mono and mine like 3d-IMAX? If so, does that affect the difficulty of remaining disengaged?
As analogy: Some people with addictions can avoid their drug altogether, food addicts cannot. To be healthy, they have to eat every day. When I meditate, I get the feeling that I'm trying to avoid The Pasta Barn by sitting in a Crispy Creme!



Dreycrux
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15 Jan 2013, 10:04 pm

Explain how you were misdiagnosed as having OCD? And I don't understand your analogy.



wornlight
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15 Jan 2013, 11:49 pm

the purpose of meditation is not stopping thought. that is just something that tends to happen and happens to be useful and enjoyable (no doubt, even for people who think that they think because thinking is enjoyable). the purpose of meditation is understanding suffering, the cause, and cessation (within the framework of buddhism, at least (but who needs suffering?)).

this is a meditation for insight, not short term relaxation:

observe bodily sensations, attending to the area of the heart while noticing the breath (wherever it is easiest to notice). this can be done continuously, from the moment of waking in the morning to the moment you fall asleep at night, in formal meditation and in ordinary activity. remember the breath, while keeping attention grounded gently at the heart, at what may feel like the center of being. in time, intentions can be seen as subtle or sometimes not so subtle tensions in the body that condition thought, speech, and action. this process can be interrupted and altered more easily the more clearly one sees how it works. view every tension (apart from those directly associated with injury and illness) as the death knell of a dying intention. one can either express it and thereby feed the tendency to intend, or let it be and let it die. it may, at times, feel like something inside of you is screaming in agony when you do this. just notice the tension as tension until it passes. then attend to the next, and so on. in this way you will come to see the nature of intention as suffering and impermanent. seeing this clearly, the mind inclines to letting go.



GrandTuringSedan
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16 Jan 2013, 12:31 am

wornlight wrote:
the purpose of meditation is not stopping thought. that is just something that tends to happen and happens to be useful and enjoyable (no doubt, even for people who think that they think because thinking is enjoyable). the purpose of meditation is understanding suffering, the cause, and cessation (within the framework of buddhism, at least (but who needs suffering?)).

this is a meditation for insight, not short term relaxation:

observe bodily sensations, attending to the area of the heart while noticing the breath (wherever it is easiest to notice). this can be done continuously, from the moment of waking in the morning to the moment you fall asleep at night, in formal meditation and in ordinary activity. remember the breath, while keeping attention grounded gently at the heart, at what may feel like the center of being. in time, intentions can be seen as subtle or sometimes not so subtle tensions in the body that condition thought, speech, and action. this process can be interrupted and altered more easily the more clearly one sees how it works. view every tension (apart from those directly associated with injury and illness) as the death knell of a dying intention. one can either express it and thereby feed the tendency to intend, or let it be and let it die. it may, at times, feel like something inside of you is screaming in agony when you do this. just notice the tension as tension until it passes. then attend to the next, and so on. in this way you will come to see the nature of intention as suffering and impermanent. seeing this clearly, the mind inclines to letting go.


My intention/expectation isn't to stop thought, but to stop chasing thoughts. My interest is in wheather there might be a difference in the difficulty of observing thought and engaging in non-striving for people whose mental world is relatively richer than the average person's. I can't know how NTs experience the act of non-striving or what they experience when they close their eyes. But, it seems I might be more likely to stop observing and get drawn into my thoughts because they may be more vivid than average. It's not just about the pleasure of thought, but the fact that thoughts tend to point me in such an obvious direction. It's hard not to follow, but could that make it harder to meditate??



GrandTuringSedan
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16 Jan 2013, 1:23 am

Dreycrux wrote:
Explain how you were misdiagnosed as having OCD? And I don't understand your analogy.


I was misdiagnosed as having ocd likely because I was asked questions and, without the context of ASD, my answers were misinterpreted. I was told that checking locks and ovens was a psychological thing. I now know that it's more because my memory of locking doors, turning off oven burners, etc. is unreliable. I didn't remember turning off the oven, so I went back to check. My memory was not considered suspect because it was very sharp regarding other things. I was told that my tendancy to focus on narrow interests was obsessive, but it wasn't. Obsession isn't what you think about, but why you think about it. ASD wasn't a consideration at the time, so my narrow interest was interpreted as obsession. My only real symptom of OCD was irrational worry. Even though I had no clear 'undoing' rituals attached to the worry, I was treated exclusively for OCD.

As far as the analogy, I was comparing the compulsion to pursue thoughts to the compulsion to pursue food. If you don't understand it, it's probably because it's a crappy analogy. :? I've been really tired lately- getting stupid (and cranky) for which i apologize.



Dreycrux
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16 Jan 2013, 1:46 am

GrandTuringSedan wrote:
Dreycrux wrote:
Explain how you were misdiagnosed as having OCD? And I don't understand your analogy.


I was misdiagnosed as having ocd likely because I was asked questions and, without the context of ASD, my answers were misinterpreted. I was told that checking locks and ovens was a psychological thing. I now know that it's more because my memory of locking doors, turning off oven burners, etc. is unreliable. I didn't remember turning off the oven, so I went back to check. My memory was not considered suspect because it was very sharp regarding other things. I was told that my tendancy to focus on narrow interests was obsessive, but it wasn't. Obsession isn't what you think about, but why you think about it. ASD wasn't a consideration at the time, so my narrow interest was interpreted as obsession. My only real symptom of OCD was irrational worry. Even though I had no clear 'undoing' rituals attached to the worry, I was treated exclusively for OCD.

As far as the analogy, I was comparing the compulsion to pursue thoughts to the compulsion to pursue food. If you don't understand it, it's probably because it's a crappy analogy. :? I've been really tired lately- getting stupid (and cranky) for which i apologize.


Actually I participated in a study looking at short term memory in people with ocd. I suffer from ocd and was told the study is investigating a link between poor memory and the disorder. I like you check the stove, locks, taps many times a day. This is half due to anxiety and the other half because I walk away and seconds later I don't remember if I checked it. Autism, ocd, and other anxiety disorders are common together.

I have both obsessions and narrow interests and your right about the difference between the two. Obsessions are different in ocd because they involve anxiety as a driving factor.

I get your analogy now, thanks.



Jaden
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16 Jan 2013, 3:23 am

I meditate on a (fairly) regular basis, however my methods are likely different than what most people are taught.
Instead of closing my mind and thoughts, and maintaining a certain posture, I relax the muscles and (pardon if this sound like mumbo-jumbo to some) open my mind and thoughts to the universe.
I imagine the universe all around me, in every direction a number of stars. Each star representing one thought. I choose one or two and I explore the worlds surrounding those thoughts. Each world can be filled with forests, oceans, colors. As I allow these worlds to further shape themselves, it becomes more and more relaxing.
The result of this type of session (when done for a long time) is that it leaves the individual with a renewed sense of calm, and often promotes higher thought (not necessarily 'smarter' as some may think, but rather a different way of looking at things to help solve problems with solutions that one never thought of previously).
I've been doing this kind of meditation for 20 years or so (usually an hour or more a day) and it helps me every time.


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wornlight
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16 Jan 2013, 11:52 am

GrandTuringSedan wrote:
My intention/expectation isn't to stop thought, but to stop chasing thoughts. My interest is in wheather there might be a difference in the difficulty of observing thought and engaging in non-striving for people whose mental world is relatively richer than the average person's. I can't know how NTs experience the act of non-striving or what they experience when they close their eyes. But, it seems I might be more likely to stop observing and get drawn into my thoughts because they may be more vivid than average. It's not just about the pleasure of thought, but the fact that thoughts tend to point me in such an obvious direction. It's hard not to follow, but could that make it harder to meditate??

here's your answer:
"I can't know how NTs experience the act of non-striving or what they experience when they close their eyes."
i agree. and it seems useless to speculate.

find a forum with dedicated, experienced meditators. find someone in whom you can gain enough confidence to follow their instructions precisely. the person does not even have to be alive (books, recordings). do the experiment for yourself. that is the only way i know to learn to meditate, and to allay doubt; investigate and experiment.

try this if it makes sense to you. try to notice thoughts the very instant they arise. trace them to their origin. every thought is the expression of an intention. the course of an intention is obviated in every moment that it is observed or acknowledged. it is as though the message is marked 'received,' even though it may not yet appear fully formed. the formation of a thought, though at first seems unconscious and instantaneous, is an observable process. look for the what, where, why, and how of thought coming into being. try 'tapping' them with attention as they begin to form, like popping bubbles, before they develop into gratifying objects. if they do, then try observing the gratification itself. bring the mechanism of intention to light.