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Free will vs Determinism

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survivor
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22 Jan 2013, 12:25 pm

We take it for granted that we have free will as it feels so intuitive.I think free will is an illusion and our universe is totally deterministic in nature.We are not the author of our thoughts and actions,we are just an witness to our actions.our thoughts emerge from our brains but we have absolutely no control over it.it is possible we are be living in a holographic world and what we do here is because of physical process in some other dimension
I find this reality very liberating and makes me less conscious of my social inabilities...It is easier for me to come to terms with my painful past as it was just how it was supposed to be and no amount of introspection is going to change it.I would also like to add that this is just not an escapist idea but is scientifically proven.
I would love to have your views on this subject.



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22 Jan 2013, 12:55 pm

I've always thought that even if there is no free will, there can be no way to know it. If I put on my red shirt today, my natural inclination is to think that it was my choice to put it on. How would I determine otherwise? How could I definitively say that it wasn't?



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22 Jan 2013, 12:59 pm

survivor wrote:
We take it for granted that we have free will as it feels so intuitive.I think free will is an illusion and our universe is totally deterministic in nature.We are not the author of our thoughts and actions,we are just an witness to our actions.our thoughts emerge from our brains but we have absolutely no control over it.it is possible we are be living in a holographic world and what we do here is because of physical process in some other dimension
I find this reality very liberating and makes me less conscious of my social inabilities...It is easier for me to come to terms with my painful past as it was just how it was supposed to be and no amount of introspection is going to change it.I would also like to add that this is just not an escapist idea but is scientifically proven.
I would love to have your views on this subject.


The problem with the deterministic viewpoint is anyone can use that belief as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions in life.
Philosophy aside (because that's all it is), everyone has free will and choose to make their own decisions, they choose to do what they do, and choosing determinism as a philosophy is no exception to that free will.
Free will is absolute and can never be taken away as the ruling decision maker.


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22 Jan 2013, 1:10 pm

survivor wrote:
We take it for granted that we have free will as it feels so intuitive.I think free will is an illusion and our universe is totally deterministic in nature.We are not the author of our thoughts and actions,we are just an witness to our actions.our thoughts emerge from our brains but we have absolutely no control over it.it is possible we are be living in a holographic world and what we do here is because of physical process in some other dimension
I find this reality very liberating and makes me less conscious of my social inabilities...It is easier for me to come to terms with my painful past as it was just how it was supposed to be and no amount of introspection is going to change it.I would also like to add that this is just not an escapist idea but is scientifically proven.
I would love to have your views on this subject.


I don't agree at all, and you provide no extra information to back up your claims. I realize your trying to reconcile with your past by resorting to determinism.

Your belief has a purely personal and emotional bias...



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22 Jan 2013, 1:43 pm

I believe in personal responsibility. I however do not believe that we have free will. We have will for sure but what we do and the decisions that we make are all shaped by our past, peer pressure, environmental pressures and how we're wired up. Is that to say that we have pre determined destinies and can't be changed? No it just means that there are other factor that influence our actions.



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22 Jan 2013, 1:56 pm

jonny23 wrote:
I believe in personal responsibility. I however do not believe that we have free will. We have will for sure but what we do and the decisions that we make are all shaped by our past, peer pressure, environmental pressures and how we're wired up. Is that to say that we have pre determined destinies and can't be changed? No it just means that there are other factor that influence our actions.


I don't personally believe in the excuse of "peer pressure", no one can make anyone do anything, through pressure or otherwise. I feel that people start using it as an excuse so they can live with their bad choices in life. That isn't to say that people can't influence each other, but rather that people like using that as an excuse for their actions so that they can live with themselves after the proverbial sh*t hits the proverbial fan.
People always look away from themselves when assigning blame for bad outcomes in life, but the reality is, you can only blame yourself for making the bad choices to begin with.

Free will = Freedom of choice


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22 Jan 2013, 2:04 pm

Jaden wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
I believe in personal responsibility. I however do not believe that we have free will. We have will for sure but what we do and the decisions that we make are all shaped by our past, peer pressure, environmental pressures and how we're wired up. Is that to say that we have pre determined destinies and can't be changed? No it just means that there are other factor that influence our actions.


I don't personally believe in the excuse of "peer pressure", no one can make anyone do anything, through pressure or otherwise. I feel that people start using it as an excuse so they can live with their bad choices in life. That isn't to say that people can't influence each other, but rather that people like using that as an excuse for their actions so that they can live with themselves after the proverbial sh*t hits the proverbial fan.
People always look away from themselves when assigning blame for bad outcomes in life, but the reality is, you can only blame yourself for making the bad choices to begin with.

Free will = Freedom of choice


I'm not saying peer pressure makes anyone do anything. It does however have an effect and if your decision was affected then it wasn't totally free. If you have ever refrained from doing something in public that would be frowned upon you have given in to peer pressure.



Last edited by jonny23 on 22 Jan 2013, 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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22 Jan 2013, 2:09 pm

Here is another thought. If you saw something horrible and violent and suddenly your all jacked up on the adrenalin cocktail do you think your likely to make the same decisions you would if you where calm? Ever do something you regretted when you where mad?



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22 Jan 2013, 2:13 pm

Free willy



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22 Jan 2013, 2:13 pm

jonny23 wrote:
Here is another thought. If you saw something horrible and violent and suddenly your all jacked up on the adrenalin cocktail do you think your likely to make the same decisions you would if you where calm? Ever do something you regretted when you where mad?


hell, I do things I regret whether I'm mad or not.



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22 Jan 2013, 2:18 pm

Rascal77s wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
Here is another thought. If you saw something horrible and violent and suddenly your all jacked up on the adrenalin cocktail do you think your likely to make the same decisions you would if you where calm? Ever do something you regretted when you where mad?


hell, I do things I regret whether I'm mad or not.


Ha! Well I can relate to you with that. But really it's not the regret, it's the influence. We are influenced by so many things and it's reflected in our decisions. We are not totally free of outside forces. This does not however mean we are not responsible for our actions.



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22 Jan 2013, 2:25 pm

jonny23 wrote:
Jaden wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
I believe in personal responsibility. I however do not believe that we have free will. We have will for sure but what we do and the decisions that we make are all shaped by our past, peer pressure, environmental pressures and how we're wired up. Is that to say that we have pre determined destinies and can't be changed? No it just means that there are other factor that influence our actions.


I don't personally believe in the excuse of "peer pressure", no one can make anyone do anything, through pressure or otherwise. I feel that people start using it as an excuse so they can live with their bad choices in life. That isn't to say that people can't influence each other, but rather that people like using that as an excuse for their actions so that they can live with themselves after the proverbial sh*t hits the proverbial fan.
People always look away from themselves when assigning blame for bad outcomes in life, but the reality is, you can only blame yourself for making the bad choices to begin with.

Free will = Freedom of choice


I'm not saying peer pressure makes anyone do anything. It does however have an effect and if your decision was affected then it wasn't totally free. If you have ever refrained from doing something in public that would be frowned upon you have given in to peer pressure.


Having ones decision affected by certain things doesn't change ones ability to make said decision. Refraining from doing something is also a choice, free will is still intact. Nothing can truly change free will/freedom of choice.


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22 Jan 2013, 2:48 pm

Jaden wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
Jaden wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
I believe in personal responsibility. I however do not believe that we have free will. We have will for sure but what we do and the decisions that we make are all shaped by our past, peer pressure, environmental pressures and how we're wired up. Is that to say that we have pre determined destinies and can't be changed? No it just means that there are other factor that influence our actions.


I don't personally believe in the excuse of "peer pressure", no one can make anyone do anything, through pressure or otherwise. I feel that people start using it as an excuse so they can live with their bad choices in life. That isn't to say that people can't influence each other, but rather that people like using that as an excuse for their actions so that they can live with themselves after the proverbial sh*t hits the proverbial fan.
People always look away from themselves when assigning blame for bad outcomes in life, but the reality is, you can only blame yourself for making the bad choices to begin with.

Free will = Freedom of choice


I'm not saying peer pressure makes anyone do anything. It does however have an effect and if your decision was affected then it wasn't totally free. If you have ever refrained from doing something in public that would be frowned upon you have given in to peer pressure.


Having ones decision affected by certain things doesn't change ones ability to make said decision. Refraining from doing something is also a choice, free will is still intact. Nothing can truly change free will/freedom of choice.


Ok, what if we look at stuff that has a more measurable influence like drugs and alcohol. Someone who is drunk is not likely to choose the same as someone who is not. To me free will describes will as being free from influence. Sometimes there is more influence than others but ignoring that we ARE influenced leads to clouded judgment. If I understand that I am buying unhealthy snack food at the store because I am shopping when I am hungry it gives me more control.



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22 Jan 2013, 3:03 pm

The debate about free will has been going on for a long time and I'm sure there are plenty of people that have thought it out way farther than I have but I guess my point is that believing in 100% free will is just as simplistic a view as believing in no free will.



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22 Jan 2013, 3:07 pm

jonny23 wrote:
We are not totally free of outside forces.


Of course not, we live in a cosmic Rube Goldberg machine.



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22 Jan 2013, 3:12 pm

Jaden wrote:
The problem with the deterministic viewpoint is anyone can use that belief as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions in life.
Philosophy aside (because that's all it is), everyone has free will and choose to make their own decisions, they choose to do what they do, and choosing determinism as a philosophy is no exception to that free will.
Free will is absolute and can never be taken away as the ruling decision maker.

Just because you don't want something to be true doesn't mean it isn't true.

I believe everything is determined. If today started again, without anybody knowing, would anybody make a different decision? No, the day would turn out exactly the same. That to me says that today was guaranteed to happen this way, and tomorrow is guaranteed to happen as tomorrow will happen.