We are "entitled", have a negative attitude?

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DVCal
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28 Feb 2013, 9:37 am

My point was simply many Aspies have this attitude that they are entitled to all of these accommodations at work and school, when really they are not. They should be thankful for whatever accommodations they get. They shouldn't go around demanding things like they are owed it.



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28 Feb 2013, 9:43 am

WrongWay wrote:
ThomasL wrote:
"Attitude" didn't come first - it didn't create all of the above - how could it??? Attitude comes after. If you're LUCKY enough to be born into the first group of people, then OF COURSE you're gonna have a positive attitude - why wouldn't you?


True to some extent - but I also believe the converse is also true (that is, attitude can come first). Sure, changing your attitude doesn't change your basic personality and traits much and it might not be easy to think this way, but it could make people treat you better and want to be around you more. Even if they don't, it takes time and patience and part of the 'attitude' also means accepting whatever happens, whether good or bad to you. This in turn reinforces your positive attitude. Conversely, having a negative attitude could drive people away from you and hence has the reverse effect, possibly creating a vicious cycle where you just keep feeling worse.

Even people in the 'first group' have problems of their own - the key is to make the most of what you have.


Yes, this seems very common sense, but I have tried - believe me, I've tried so hard - to be positive, to be "normal", to be friendly and happy and upbeat and all that... and it can kinda/sorta work for a while, but clearly I don't know how to do this very well and people still sense something odd, and reject me sooner or later, usually sooner. And that is SO g*ddamn painful, and slams me down much lower than I would feel just being totally alone... I just don't know what to do anymore - d*mned if I do, d*amned if I don't is how I feel.



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28 Feb 2013, 9:50 am

Jayo wrote:
Yeah, it's total BS. Attitude is a by-product of your circumstance and the genetic card hand that you're dealt.

Of course, if you try to argue that with your average NT, you'll probably just get accused of "over-analyzing" things. :x

Perhaps the "entitled" perception comes from stereotypes that (young) people with Aspergers come from middle-to-upper class families (which is demographically true) and that they've been pampered to the point of being rude or not reciprocating certain unspoken gestures and what not. Fact is, they don't recognize or can't define these things, so they can't adequately respond to them (as you and I know very well!!)

Maybe you should question the attitude of the social worker who is making the disability claim difficult. Surely these people are trained, in this day and age, to recognize autistic spectrum conditions and the debilitating effect it can have on employment prospects.


Thank you so much for posting - nice to hear from someone who totally sees it my way, and also excellent point about the "entitled" thing - I think there is some kind of class prejudice going on.

It's not my fault what family or socioeconomic class I was born into. People think I'm spoiled or "entitled" just because they can tell I came from an upper-middle class background? Who doesn't want to do as well as their parents? That's no crime. I wish I was born poor - at least then I would be used to being poor my whole life - there is nothing worse than downward mobility! As it is, my pain is that much greater, because it's that much harder for someone with my conditions (Asperger's/HFA, depression, anxiety, social phobia, extreme introversion, hearing loss, fatigue, etc.) to reproduce the standard of living I got used to as a kid.



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28 Feb 2013, 9:59 am

ThomasL wrote:
WrongWay wrote:
ThomasL wrote:
"Attitude" didn't come first - it didn't create all of the above - how could it??? Attitude comes after. If you're LUCKY enough to be born into the first group of people, then OF COURSE you're gonna have a positive attitude - why wouldn't you?


True to some extent - but I also believe the converse is also true (that is, attitude can come first). Sure, changing your attitude doesn't change your basic personality and traits much and it might not be easy to think this way, but it could make people treat you better and want to be around you more. Even if they don't, it takes time and patience and part of the 'attitude' also means accepting whatever happens, whether good or bad to you. This in turn reinforces your positive attitude. Conversely, having a negative attitude could drive people away from you and hence has the reverse effect, possibly creating a vicious cycle where you just keep feeling worse.

Even people in the 'first group' have problems of their own - the key is to make the most of what you have.


Yes, this seems very common sense, but I have tried - believe me, I've tried so hard - to be positive, to be "normal", to be friendly and happy and upbeat and all that... and it can kinda/sorta work for a while, but clearly I don't know how to do this very well and people still sense something odd, and reject me sooner or later, usually sooner. And that is SO g*ddamn painful, and slams me down much lower than I would feel just being totally alone... I just don't know what to do anymore - d*mned if I do, d*amned if I don't is how I feel.


I can understand that it's not easy, but I think don't worry so much about being 'normal' (it's difficult, especially if you try to sustain it and it takes too much effort and energy). Being yourself is probably more okay than you think (especially if you are around people who understand you, and it won't seem like you're forcing yourself to be someone else which might come off as unnatural). Also try not to worry too much about being rejected by other people - you don't really lose anything in this case and it could just mean you've happened to meet the wrong people.


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28 Feb 2013, 9:59 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Unless one is a hermit living out in the middle of nowhere entirely off the land, I say people are entitled to the means to survive as well as enjoyment of life. What is the point of even having a society or community, if not to ensure it's members are taken care of and allowed some enjoyment in life if that's not more or less the purpose maybe it should be called a free for all rather than a society. Maybe that's a terrible, evil entitled view point...but I don't really care.

...

I don't know if a disability worker told you that I'd say file a complaint about them, I am pretty sure they are allowed to tell you if you are unlikely to get on disability based on the conditions you have or if you need more medical records or whatever but that does not extend to judging your character and attitude to try and discourage you. Or maybe if you didn't end up applying you could attempt again and maybe get someone else to file the application or whatever...not sure if the process in your state includes talking to a social worker type person who helps fill out the application and submits it but yeah if it does and they are the one who said that I think it would be reasonable to file a complaint.


Yes - I agree with you - this is not a society or a community - those are empty words. We live in a dog-eat-dog social Darwinian world, and it's getting worse, not better. I got better for a while, while the elites were afraid of communism - so they threw the 99.9% a few bones starting in the 1930s - 40 hour workweek, overtime pay, weekends off, unemployment insurance (of fairly limited duration), pensions (almost non-existent today)... they started eliminating these things already by the 1980s when they knew communism was defeated and they had no more fear of unions or people rising up an demanding a fair share of the pie. Today, if you're lucky enough to get the right genes and/or parents (let's face it - if you get one, you probably get both), you get EVERYTHING - people are born billionaires these days - and the rest of us get less and less. Bad for everyone in the lower 99.9%, but suicidally horrible for people with disabilities. There is a Nazi-like campaign by the right-wing media to slander all of us as "frauds" so they can do away with disability benefits and let us just die, or else brutalize us when we end up in jails or mental hospitals or homeless.

And yes, I really need to file a complaint... I just keep putting it off because I hate confrontation - I'm sure it stresses me out more than them - they probably just laugh - and I have almost zero confidence it will do me any good.



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28 Feb 2013, 10:05 am

Tyri0n wrote:
I wish I could get disability benefits.


Please keep trying! It seems to be something of a lottery - but you definitely won't get them if you don't keep trying and appealing, etc. - it's an extremely frustrating process - designed that way to discourage people. They act like it's their money - it's really insufferable. Yet billionaire bankers have no problem borrowing TRILLIONS of dollars from the Fed to "pay back" their bailouts, and the biggest companies in the land get away with paying ZERO taxes on their multi-billion dollar profits some years... this system is so crooked and cruel it's sickening - I wish I didn't know all the stuff I've learned. I wish I could just be a kid again - I wish my parents were still alive and together, even though their marriage was a cold and terrible one... little did I know that those were the best days of my life????



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28 Feb 2013, 10:15 am

Stoek wrote:
The world is a awful place and anyone in denial of that is a moron.

Just the same if you got any form of autism, your likely to live a life full of misery.

So if acknowledging that causes people to label you, they're morons.


That being said, acknowledging bad things and using them as an excuse to feel bad is completely different.

Anyways seeking out disability isn't a great thing to do. For one reason any time you use these services someone else that may need em will get denied.

And more importantly the financial structures that support these services are crumbling.


Naturally, using bad things (in general, about the world, etc.) as an excuse to feel bad would be foolish.

I feel bad after trying to stay positive my whole life, but things only get worse and worse for me, for reasons beyond my control.

It isn't merely about the world, it's about my life, and what a hellish dead-end it seems to be.

Disability is a joke - it is so little and is given so stingily, to make you feel like you're taking something you don't deserve, etc., nobody would seek it unless they really, really needed it. Plus, in our society, being on disability is a mark of personal failure - because disability isn't really recognized - people don't think it can happen to them until it does - so they think it will never happen to them and that disabled people are to be looked down on as a drag on society, etc. The general attitude today really isn't far from the Nazi attitude that justified cramming "mental defectives and useless eaters" into vans and gassing them to death. So far our government takes a more passive approach - letting most people with disabilities just become homeless, or criminal, and then letting them die of neglect or prison brutality.

And the financial structures that support social services are not crumbling because of the people who need and use them. They are crumbling because the elites have been taking a bigger and bigger piece of the pie for over 40 years now, and they are deliberately cutting their own taxes and running up the deficit in order to justify slashing social services. This is still the richest country in the history of man - the way they are neglecting people with need is not just unconscionable and inexcusable - it is criminal.



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28 Feb 2013, 10:21 am

League_Girl wrote:
But aren't people entitled to disability benefits if they need it? Has "entitled" become an insult now?


Indeed it has - and not just for disabled people, but even for the elderly who have paid into the system their whole lives, only to be told that their pensions were "unfunded" and social security and medicare are "unsustainable", etc.

Just watch Fox News or listen to AM hate radio for a while - it'll turn your stomach. But I guess most people who watch/listen to those demagogues aren't intelligent or knowledgeable enough to understand what's really going on. They are easily manipulated through fear and anger - facts and reason never come into it. These guys are master manipulators - they make the Nazis' propaganda look crude and sophomoric.



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28 Feb 2013, 10:23 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
But aren't people entitled to disability benefits if they need it? Has "entitled" become an insult now?

I am entitled to have kids, I am entitled to having a job, I am entitled to entertainment and fun, I am entitled to marriage. We're all entitled to our opinions and to how we live our lives and what we buy.


And help when needed if you live in a society with a social safety network if not it probably needs one....but no we can't have people wanting things that would be good for them, help them or make them happy and taking steps to get those things, then they might realize they don't have to feel like sh*t about themselves for having wants and needs
Image can't be having that.


Exactly! Meanwhile, Wall Street thugs get billions and trillions from their cronies in government - no problem there. Even the media is afraid to talk about that too strongly.



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28 Feb 2013, 10:25 am

marshall wrote:

What one "feels" isn't necessarily a choice. Plus if you have clinical depression it's possible to "feel bad" about "bad things" in greater proportion than what an outsider would consider "reasonable", yet it's still not a choice.


So true!



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28 Feb 2013, 10:31 am

HeyimJoel wrote:


True success comes from overcoming the many hardships you face.


I agree, but even with well above average intelligence and 48 years on this earth, I cannot figure out how to do this. I feel like an abject failure, even though it's really not my fault.



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28 Feb 2013, 10:38 am

DVCal wrote:
I do think many aspies have a sense of entitlement to things they don't necessarily must have provided. Let's say you need a private quiet area to work, with dim non florescent lights and 5 minute rest each hour. Why you may want these, you shouldn't feel entitled to them, and no employer should be forced to make these accommodation.

If I was an employer and an Aspire came in, and started requesting all of these type of accommodations, I would try to make them feel unwanted as possible, try drive them away. Minor request like dimmer lights may be OK, but others like a private quiet work area, means they should find a new job.


You think making these accommodations for disabled people is unreasonable because our elites/government/media have conditioned us to think this way. The problem is that NOBODY wants to hire disabled people, so there is no "new job" to be found. These days even perfectly "normal" people can't find work - the unemployment rate is criminally high, and the blame goes to the elites - not to the victims. They have been off-shoring jobs and importing cheap illegal labor for decades precisely in order to screw the disabled, the unfortunate, the 'unproductive' (less productive, for no fault of their own) people.

A decent government would try to even the playing field by making it attractive for employers to hire disabled people and give them whatever accommodations they need. At the same time it would tax the hell out of those lucky enough to get all the right genes to be wildly successful in our society. Why do we punish bad luck with poverty and shame and reward good luck with billions and societal adulation?



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28 Feb 2013, 10:47 am

Jaden wrote:


@OP
I've had people insult me because of my issues, I recieve benefits right now, largely due to my agoraphobia, but because I'm physically ok, people make the claim that I'm just "making excuses" or "not even trying". People like that really p*ss me off honestly, because they couldn't possibly know what it's like to be afraid of every new thing that happens, whether it's because of having to go somewhere new (which is terrifying to me), or do something that you've never done before and likely not know how to accomplish the goal of said new thing. They think it's all cut and dry/one way or the other, and people like that will give you the biggest hard time about it as well, trying to lay on as much of a "guilt trip" as they can with their "there are lots of people way worse off than you, so stop complaining" and other such bs. People like that like to downplay the problems that we have because to them we "appear" fine. What do they call that kind of person again? You know, the ones who don't believe in anything that they can't physically interact with in any way. Meh, I'll make up my own word for them: Physicalists :lol:

You know, I just looked it up, that's the real term lol Not kidding, click this


I think "ignorant", "judgmental", and "hateful" might be even better terms!



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28 Feb 2013, 11:02 am

Jaden wrote:
DVCal wrote:
I do think many aspies have a sense of entitlement to things they don't necessarily must have provided. Let's say you need a private quiet area to work, with dim non florescent lights and 5 minute rest each hour. Why you may want these, you shouldn't feel entitled to them, and no employer should be forced to make these accommodation.

If I was an employer and an Aspire came in, and started requesting all of these type of accommodations, I would try to make them feel unwanted as possible, try drive them away. Minor request like dimmer lights may be OK, but others like a private quiet work area, means they should find a new job.


See, this is the problem right here, too many employers think this way, and that's why people with AS can't work half the time. It's not that people with AS are being unreasonable or feeling that they're "entitled" to a certain work environment, it's because those conditions allow said person to work at their peek efficiency, and any employer that can't recognize that clearly doesn't have their workers' best interests in mind. I'm not saying "bend over backwards and change everything for one person", but seriously, something has to give somewhere, and people can't make enough money to survive if they have to constantly look for a job that they can function in properly.

Employers seem to like to use the excuse of "workers will adapt or find a new job" to get what they want and not worry about what the workers' needs are. In fact "making them feel as unwanted as possible" and "trying to drive them away" because of the reasons stated above, amounts to workplace discrimination based on mental health, and that can get employers into a load of trouble with a lot of people.


In my experience, employers do NOT get in any trouble for this. In theory, there are laws against this, but they are just for show. This happened to me - my employer and the whole office made life hell for me, trying to get me to leave. My stress level was THROUGH THE ROOF the entire time I was there, but I tried to stick it out, because I didn't know what else to do - I figured any other job would be the same, and I at least wanted to get a year or so in before looking for another job. Well, as it turns out, just as I was about to explode from stress, I got injured on the job and simply could not continue doing that job. Unfortunately for me (again!), the injury was of the invisible variety, and easy for the system to deny. I asked my employer to please let me have another position that I could do despite my injury and disabilities, but to no avail. They fired me by sending me a letter saying "we accept your resignation". I quickly found out that no employment law attorney would take my "wrongful termination" case, because they all only represent the corporate side, not the worker's side.

As for the Americans with Disabilities Act? I think that's also totally for show - how would I be able to prove that they fired me because of my disabilities? How would I even prove that they fired me when they sent that letter saying they "accept my resignation"?

I really, really tried my best at that job - my utmost. And supposedly I was performing the job well, but at tremendous stress to myself (the job seemed to be a breeze for most others). And after being mistreated like that (ostracized, fired, treated like a fraud, etc.) I tried my utmost to get some justice. All to no avail. All I did was further stress myself out. The system is unbelievably harsh and cruel.



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28 Feb 2013, 11:10 am

CockneyRebel wrote:
I'm the opposite. I don't feel entitled to have a negative attitude. I prefer to have a positive attitude about things and celebrate all the things that make me the unique person that I am.


Sure, I'd prefer that too! And I did, as long as I was comfortably sheltered by family. Once my parents died and I found out how harsh and cruel the world is and that I could not support myself no matter how hard I tried.... that's when I became unrelentingly negative. And it's not that I feel "entitled to have a negative attitude" - I just don't know how I can be positive anymore given my current reality and apparently very bleak future.



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28 Feb 2013, 11:14 am

Who_Am_I wrote:
Quote:
If given an option of 5 minute break an hour and a quite private area or starvation, you will quickly learn to adapt.


Or you'll seem to adapt for a while, then burn yourself out completely and starve anyway, but whatever, same difference, am I right?


You are SO right!