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it the NT world just a lot of people "acting" ?

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rogerharris
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12 May 2013, 7:22 am

I guess this must have come up before.

the primary problem aspies have in jobs is the inability to determine what other people want in terms of a persona from each other. i.e. If i was doing a blue collar job it would be the "alright mate" overtly open pro-social routine. If i was in an office job it would be more the "keep it to yourself" talk behind each others back routine.. Everybody has to be skilled at conforming to these persona routines or you are in trouble.. Every situation it appear has a set of social protocols where you are expected to pretend some type of interaction. Even in very basic stuff like buying groceries.

So the logical conclusion has to be that the working world consists of acting basically... How far does this really go. The children have to act as compliant and willing to behave. Adults have to pretend they dont have problems to not worry their parents. I mean a lot of the acting is for nice reasons, its not all games to get one over the other guy.

But at the end of the day if we cannot "keep our act together", the consequences are bad.

its still acting it it not ? so this is the real role of play in childhood that autism has problems with. play is really to learn how to become adept at pretending ?



rogerharris
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12 May 2013, 7:25 am

but then this gives rise to the conclusion, if the social structure of the world is built on performance of pretence, with some occasional frankness, then the concept of honesty as a general human trait is actually complete rubbish.



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12 May 2013, 7:37 am

Pretty much. NT's are weird like that. They value honesty yet lie constantly to each other. I don't get it at all.


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12 May 2013, 8:05 am

Nts are highly fixated on posturing, it appears to be their main activity for atleast 50 percent of their time.

They blatantly admit it to. They'll say "you don't know how to act" etc.

They don't think they mean act literally but they in fact do. We don't act we simply be, it's a rather interesting difference that is pretty strong once you understand it.

The nt brain is so fixated on this posturing they so often confuse the posturing from the actual state.

They fixate on acting nice, instead of actually making any effort to being a good person, and would be more proud of saying nice things than of actually doing them.

Nts confuse people that act rich, from the people that actually have ability to keep money within the family.

Nts value someone who sounds smart over someone who has actual intelligence etc.



neilson_wheels
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12 May 2013, 8:19 am

rogerharris wrote:
but then this gives rise to the conclusion, if the social structure of the world is built on performance of pretence, with some occasional frankness, then the concept of honesty as a general human trait is actually complete rubbish.


Does the concept of honesty predate the forming of cliches within society. If I lived in the stone age and made a stone axe, it would belong to me. If another member of the tribe stole it from me I would expect to get it back. If the thief was stronger than me and of a higher social placing could I hope that honesty would prevail?



rogerharris
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12 May 2013, 9:36 am

neilson_wheels wrote:
rogerharris wrote:
but then this gives rise to the conclusion, if the social structure of the world is built on performance of pretence, with some occasional frankness, then the concept of honesty as a general human trait is actually complete rubbish.


Does the concept of honesty predate the forming of cliches within society. If I lived in the stone age and made a stone axe, it would belong to me. If another member of the tribe stole it from me I would expect to get it back. If the thief was stronger than me and of a higher social placing could I hope that honesty would prevail?


it depends on context, no absolute answer, as you might be useful in other ways that would motivate others to promote honesty for your behalf. So honesty is really a motivational construct and not a rule of thumb. We know this from the scientific study of ingroup politics.. we also know primates have built in sensitivity to equitable distribution of resources. our empathy for others reflects our shared perception of these built in mechanisms.. but the resources are acquired through gaming which then contradicts or gets in the way of empathy. I mean this contradiction is why we built ethics and law systems in the first place. Its not like the NT world is not aware of these problems at the higher levels.



rogerharris
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12 May 2013, 9:39 am

Stoek wrote:
Nts are highly fixated on posturing, it appears to be their main activity for atleast 50 percent of their time.

They blatantly admit it to. They'll say "you don't know how to act" etc.

They don't think they mean act literally but they in fact do. We don't act we simply be, it's a rather interesting difference that is pretty strong once you understand it.

The nt brain is so fixated on this posturing they so often confuse the posturing from the actual state.

They fixate on acting nice, instead of actually making any effort to being a good person, and would be more proud of saying nice things than of actually doing them.

Nts confuse people that act rich, from the people that actually have ability to keep money within the family.

Nts value someone who sounds smart over someone who has actual intelligence etc.


good point, although i dont want to start grouping all NT as them and us either. Its the general throng of ambivalent people creating these constructs, because they are either overstretched by everyday demands or do not care.

Lets not forget all these people who built our system of law and ethics and are still there who currently develop it (i.e. human rights for aspies and others now).



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12 May 2013, 9:42 am

the almost scientific method type "humanproofing" aspects in law make me wonder how much contract law etc is actually dreamed up by those with a touch of AS in them.



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12 May 2013, 11:34 am

Stoek wrote:
Nts are highly fixated on posturing, it appears to be their main activity for atleast 50 percent of their time.

They blatantly admit it to. They'll say "you don't know how to act" etc.


I'd say "Work with an extensive set of social rules". To make things more complicated, those social rules change constantly based on such things as context, location, and social status. Social Status is usually the most important.


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12 May 2013, 12:14 pm

Stoek wrote:
Nts are highly fixated on posturing, it appears to be their main activity for atleast 50 percent of their time.

They blatantly admit it to. They'll say "you don't know how to act" etc.

They don't think they mean act literally but they in fact do. We don't act we simply be, it's a rather interesting difference that is pretty strong once you understand it.

The nt brain is so fixated on this posturing they so often confuse the posturing from the actual state.

They fixate on acting nice, instead of actually making any effort to being a good person, and would be more proud of saying nice things than of actually doing them.

Nts confuse people that act rich, from the people that actually have ability to keep money within the family.

Nts value someone who sounds smart over someone who has actual intelligence etc.


      Terrifically insightful!


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boywonder
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12 May 2013, 9:56 pm

They are a different breed in many more ways too.
Quite emotional, they form intense bonds and often fallout afterwards, now hating each other. Oh wait... thats us too huh?
God bless their little projecting childlike fantasies...

Reality TV is making real people act more, like they are on TV



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12 May 2013, 10:08 pm

AgentPalpatine wrote:
Stoek wrote:
Nts are highly fixated on posturing, it appears to be their main activity for atleast 50 percent of their time.

They blatantly admit it to. They'll say "you don't know how to act" etc.


I'd say "Work with an extensive set of social rules". To make things more complicated, those social rules change constantly based on such things as context, location, and social status. Social Status is usually the most important.
This seems the ultimate game of an aspie. To bad their wasn't a language(jargon) of being able to explain this to another aspie.

On a more pessimistic note, it's important to remember, when playing a part your body language must match the part. NTS have an ability to see through a poorly acted character. All that body language is directly for the purpose of playing that character. If one simply plays the cool guy routine with a group of nts without the proper body language one is dramatically failing.

The trick is to play a part that fits the Act( the conversation/setting) that is aspie appropriate.



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13 May 2013, 5:19 am

Shakespeare seemed to think so, though he was talking about everyone, not just NTs.

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

But when people talk about "everyone", they usually mean NTs. :P



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13 May 2013, 5:44 am

From an NT point of view...

What you describe in your OP is social conditioning. It's meant to make the other people around you feel better or more at ease. It's meant to be thoughtful of others.

It isn't necessary to completely change oneself to fit in. Just trying to avoid acting the polar opposite than your surrounding is enough.



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13 May 2013, 9:06 am

Stoek wrote:
On a more pessimistic note, it's important to remember, when playing a part your body language must match the part. NTS have an ability to see through a poorly acted character. All that body language is directly for the purpose of playing that character. If one simply plays the cool guy routine with a group of nts without the proper body language one is dramatically failing.

The trick is to play a part that fits the Act( the conversation/setting) that is aspie appropriate.

I would go further and say that body language and all the rest of non-verbal communication is actually more important than what you say, and I totally agree that leaving it out leads to dramatic failing.


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13 May 2013, 9:12 am

I used to be a moderator on a computer game and as such became the "Aspie Aunt" to many Aspie players. I have always told players who had trouble dealing with crowds and just other people in general to keep in mind that Shakespeare was right: All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.