Autism School in China, Possible Mistreatment - Help?

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BigSister
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12 Jul 2013, 9:22 am

*I tend to write a lot, so if you want to read a brief version I put asterisks by the most important paragraphs of the post (the last two paragraphs).* Edited to add: Okay, so I came across not in a way I intended and in a way that doesn't reflect who I am, nor does it reflect what my plans are/were (spoiler alert: I didn't have firm plans, that's why I needed/need help). I'm editing in more background/clarification. In addition, I realize this makes this into a crazy long post, but if you wouldn't mind I'd appreciate it if you skipped down to the fifth post (my reply to everyone) and skimmed it before you responded. Thanks in advance!

Okay, so I'm going to China in February. Last time I was there my class was taken to a school full of children on the autism spectrum. We got to interact with the kids all day and I was greatly relieved to see how they were treated (there were two sections of the building that kids rotated between which they called "homework" and "exercise" areas, but really I'd call them OT and PT areas). Apparently they got some help from someone who came over from the States when they set it up, although I got the sense that none of them are trained.

Anyways, when I go back I figured I'd go volunteer there, just because they (at least the employees) didn't seem to understand autism save for through the children in their care, and I'm 100% sure that I'm the only one with the perspective I have on autism [Edited to add: as a sibling, person who's heard of neurodiversity, person who has met successful people on the spectrum, etc]. I remember talking to one of the employees about a six year old. I suggested that since he knows bus routes so well he could take people's fares when he grows up because he'd know how far it was and the cost (mostly joking: the boy was six, after all - who knows what he'll be interested in when he's an adult). The lady took me seriously and turned to me and said no, he'd never be capable of anything like that. I might be missing a cultural cue here (I know optimism is more of a Western trait), but to say something like that when a boy is six (and no, she wasn't joking) just struck me as extremely pessimistic in a not good kind of way - and she believed it. So I figured having multiple perspectives on autism there, like people on the spectrum can be successful when they grow up, etc, might be a really good thing. Plus it sounds like there's parental neglect for a lot of the kids at home [Edited to add: Not my assumption, the Chinese employees actually said something along these lines, although I don't think they actually said neglect, so we'll just call it bad situation at home], so if I could educate the parents (if they were willing to be educated/hear from a girl with a successful sibling on the spectrum) that'd be really beneficial.

****There's just one concern of mine. When I was at the autism school, one of the women smacked a child (the little boy I was talking about) - more in a loud way than a painful way, but still not great. I wasn't cool with that. [Edited to add: I did not freak out. I did not say it was wrong. It's just not the sort of thing I enjoy, but the emphasis should be placed on the next sentence.] What's more, I have a friend that interned there for a whole month and she alluded to what I would call mistreatment (although probably doesn't qualify for that there) [Edited to add: Mistreatment seems to be the wrong label. We'll just call it an ambiguous physical punishment which was implied to be excessive]. She mentioned something about putting the children in painful holds (she didn't say if they were bound that way or not, but I think/hope they were just physically held) and alluded some more hitting which sounded rather more strong than what I witnessed. She said she was uncomfortable with it [Edited to add: And from her own cultural background, she's pretty used to physical punishment], and I can only imagine I'd be even more so. I haven't been able to get further information from her since to verify what she said/extent/etc, but this isn't painting a good picture.

****I figure when I go back I can't just stop them from doing what they're doing. Being young, new, and a foreigner without OT/PT/official autism training I'll be the most bottom of the totem pole that you can be in a hierarchy (which is extra important over there) and there's no way anyone's going to listen to me if I tell them what to do. [Edited to emphasize: I am not going to tell them what to do. Period. I'm not going to tell them what they're doing is wrong, I'm not going to say Western methods are superior (and I don't even think that), or anything else ridiculously imperialistic.] I'm going to try to learn as much about autism in Chinese as I can and finish translating my website into Chinese before I go, which should give me some more credibility, but not much. What I can do, however, is suggest other ways of dealing with the children. [Edited for emphasis: Key word is suggest. While being respectful and careful of hierarchy. And I know it sounds like I'm trying to say tell them what they're doing is wrong and they should do something else, but that's not it, that would be a bad idea on a lot of levels and I'm not going to do it - just mention another method that works.] Again, not a great chance for success, but probably better odds than telling them just to stop. Do you guys have any suggestions? It sounds like they do this when the kids aren't following instructions (the smack I witnessed came when the little boy was talking about buses instead of going down a slide) - what are alternate ways you'd suggest for them to deal with this? Any other thoughts about the school? I'd appreciate any thoughts on this subject that anyone has to give, as I'm not at all sure how to proceed myself.



Last edited by BigSister on 13 Jul 2013, 3:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

Tawaki
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12 Jul 2013, 12:32 pm

I take it you did not grow up in China.

Your attitude will not be considered "optimistic", it is more like ugly Westerner coming in to save the day.

I believe you need to educate yourself on the cultural beliefs of Autism and it's effects on the family before riding in with
no "paper work, ie degree" to back you up. And the fact you are ASD holds even less weight with them.

A good start. It also talks about other cultures too.

academiccommons.columbia.edu/.../ac.../Cultural_Psych_ECKER.pdf‎

Granted the paper is 2010, but a start.

The first 6 pages deals with South Korea, and page 7 starts the Chinese beliefs on Autism

"Just like in South Korea, for the majority of autistic families in China, disability is
seen as the result of previous wrongdoing by parents or ancestors -- primarily of the
mother (McCabe 2007). The parents or ancestors are therefore blamed for having brought
autism to their family. The stigma around autism has resulted in discrimination not only
of the autistic child, but also of the family as a whole (McCabe 2007). A traditional
Chinese saying exemplifies the relationship between the family and the autistic child. The
saying goes, “In the first 10 years, observe the father and love the son. In the last 10
years, observe the son and respect the father” (McCabe 2007 p.43). In other words, in the
beginning of life the father’s influence is what shapes the son into a son to be loved, and
at the end of life how well the father shaped the son to succeed will determine how well
the father should be respected. With autism, the later success in the child’s life will be
very limited because of his sickness. Consequently, some parents try to hide their autistic
children from society altogether to prevent the loss of respect of the father as well as the
respect of the family in society."...

And if you live in the States, a little closer to home

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/nyreg ... d=all&_r=0

Some other links for grins and giggles

http://www.ghjournal.org/jgh-print/spri ... -in-china/

http://safchina.org/researchupdate/en/index.php

Medical and mental health issues are viewed in an entirely different light in China than the West. You have cultural issues also relating to belief systems.

I worked for people from Hong Kong and Beijing. The Western attitudes for "implementing changes" are pretty well toast until you understand where THEY are coming from. You bring up
what is "wrong" will go over like dog crap at a wedding buffet table.

I was told repeatedly Westerners never shut up and listen. Also they have no respect for hierarchy. Which is true, lol....

Was your internship at Stars and Rain?

As for hitting. I live in the States. Ex pats from China and Korea have no problem giving kids a scream down with a hit for perceived misbehaving. Like the teacher oversharing the child wasn't listening. The American parent might give that factoid a shrug. I've heard many a Chinese parent scream how dare the kid disrespect the teacher like that. Then go into a Mandarin rant. Granted, there are plenty Americans that have no qualms breaking out the belt, hair brush, wood spoon or hand when little Bella or Jakob gets sassy or surly.
(I don't agree, but you have to acknowledge what is going on).

Hope this gives you food for thought. Your heart is kind, but your attitude needs a little fine tuning or no one at the school will listen.



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12 Jul 2013, 1:01 pm

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. And when is China, do as the Chinese do. As another poster noted, trying to force liberal beliefs on others smacks of the very predatory imperialism that modern liberalism claims to decry and condemn. If you do this, you will be hated, and it will be hard to blame the Chinese. You need to show the same respect for their beliefs in China that we would want them to show for our beliefs here.

Bottom line: Leave your liberalism at home or don't go.



zer0netgain
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12 Jul 2013, 2:31 pm

I agree. You can NEVER judge what someone does in a different culture until you understand that culture. It may be abuse by anyone's standard, but many things we consider rude or abusive is normal in other cultures. Many things we do that's considered proper would be seen as rude or abusive in other nations.



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12 Jul 2013, 3:04 pm

I have discovered that my intentions tend to be misconstrued frequently when I post. Not just with ASD (I'll discuss that next paragraph) or China, but in general. I think I assume that the other people know things about me which you guys have no way of knowing as strangers on the internet, but anyone who knows me understands. For example, my friends know that I'm really careful culturally and don't tell people what to do, but I didn't give any evidence of that in my post and there's no way you could have known. All that is to say, I completely understand how this got misunderstood and I'm sorry for not being clearer. I'm still not sure how to convey all the background material necessary without overloading others with length. So in the interest of clarity, this post is going to be really long. I'm sorry about that, but it seems necessary.

Background:

I do not wish to ride in and save the day or force anything on anyone or tell someone what they're doing is wrong (which I apparently didn't convey well in the previous post). Suggesting alternatives eventually (I'm going to be there for a while) while being careful of my place in the hierarchy and being respectful is what I want to do if possible. I will not tell anyone what to do. That is a dumb idea, and I'm well aware of it. I know I'm a 老外 who not only didn't grow up there, but isn't even ethnically Chinese. I am as low on that totem pole as I can be and rightfully so, to be honest, considering my lack of training, youth, etc. If I go there, I will be a student first - I have a lot to learn. I respect hierarchy. So much so that when I interned in China last summer I was literally afraid every day of work because I was so scared that I would make some giant mistake, like accidentally pouring water for the wrong person first, or sitting at the wrong place at a table, or sitting down before the most senior person in the room has. I have so many American habits that there are a LOT of places for things to go wrong.

I see how easy it is for me to fall into the typical foreigner narrative. I've met a LOT of tourists like that. They're annoying, they like to make dumb, racist jokes [I cannot tell you how many times I've been told the "How do Chinese people name their babies?" joke or imitation of a Chinese accent and had to restrain myself], they get angry at others for their own cultural failings (my teacher likes to tell the story of a woman in Northern China who was angry because she was served hot water instead of cold, even though the default setting there is scalding hot water), and they act like they understand a place just because they've been there (or even if they haven't been there) despite not having studied the history or culture of the area, nor speaking the language, and spending the whole time there hanging out with other tourists, and they think Westerners and Western methods are automatically superior and should be adopted without question by other countries. And for some reason they seem to automatically assume that I'm a missionary. (I'm not. I'm not even religious.) And I'm not just talking about people visiting China. If I'd read this post from someone else, I probably would have assumed they were one of these people because unfortunately they predominate and I gave no cues to the contrary. So if you thought I was one of those people, no worries.

As for pessimism/optimism as I mentioned with the employee and the boy who likes buses, I don't have a problem with pessimism - it just made me realize that the woman, even if she was just saying that from a cultural perspective, probably had never heard of or seen anyone successful on the spectrum before. Since I have, I figured that was a good perspective to have on hand. Again, not going to force it on anyone, but just by virtue of me being there it will be there and if employees wanted to know about successful people, adults on the spectrum, etc, we could talk about it.

Response:
Even with cultural considerations, I don't think anyone, the employees included, particularly likes how the children are getting pinned, hit, etc. They just like the results. Being informed about alternate ways of doing things (I know where my sister did PT/OT they had a system set up) doesn't seem that offensive to me, as long as it's not in a "in your face, you will do this" sort of way or a "This is what we do in the US and it's superior" way, and is just mentioned in passing. And considering the school had help starting it from outsiders, they seem open to other perspectives of doing things. I know I said I wasn't cool with the hitting, pinning, etc. I'm not, and that's not going to change. But just because I don't like it doesn't mean I'm going to be nasty about it, or lecture anyone or try to tell them what they're doing is wrong or even bring it up in conversation.

I do not have all the answers. I was not and am not entirely sure how to proceed and am willing to learn. That's why I reached out, and also why I put so much extraneous material in my post - I legitimately appreciate your responses and thoughts on not only the school but on my perspective itself.

Tawaki, I am super sorry I didn't read your articles before I posted this. I'll read them and get back to you, it's just that I think what you all are saying is going to be a very common theme in responses (as I said, I kind of set myself up for that, and I accept full responsibility), so I wanted to get this posted quickly before more replies came in.

I'll probably edit this and add more in a bit, but since replies keep flooding in, I'm going to fight my perfectionistic side and just post this and edit as I go. I'll put asterisks up for things I add/edit.



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12 Jul 2013, 3:11 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
I agree. You can NEVER judge what someone does in a different culture until you understand that culture. It may be abuse by anyone's standard, but many things we consider rude or abusive is normal in other cultures. Many things we do that's considered proper would be seen as rude or abusive in other nations.


I know this isn't entirely related, but you made me think of the debate about cultural relativism in anthropology. (Not related to my post or China or anything anymore, just interesting.) It's basically about where to draw the line between abuse and culture. I found it to be an interesting subject and you may, too. Here's an article on the subject: http://home.sandiego.edu/~baber/gender/ ... ivism.html



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12 Jul 2013, 3:22 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. And when is China, do as the Chinese do. As another poster noted, trying to force liberal beliefs on others smacks of the very predatory imperialism that modern liberalism claims to decry and condemn. If you do this, you will be hated, and it will be hard to blame the Chinese. You need to show the same respect for their beliefs in China that we would want them to show for our beliefs here.

Bottom line: Leave your liberalism at home or don't go.


This puts me in an awkward position. If I say I condone imperialism, I sound terrible (and would be lying). If I say that I decry and condemn imperialism, I also sound terrible, because by the logic of this post, modern liberals make and fail to live up to that claim. It's a lose-lose no matter what I say. So I simply request that you take my word for it when I say that I decry and condemn imperialism.

I wouldn't be hated if I did what I was planning to do (especially since I had no firm plans, which is why I was asking for advice)....but I would be hated if I did what it sounded like I was planning to do. So no big deal on the misunderstanding, I get where it's coming from. As I said in my first reply, not trying to force anything on anyone.

I don't plan on leaving my beliefs at home. I just don't plan to force them on anyone, or even necessarily talk about them with anyone unless we're friends (and there we're talking about Chinese-culture friendship, not American-culture friendship), and I'll be open to new ideas.



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12 Jul 2013, 4:13 pm

Tawaki wrote:
I take it you did not grow up in China.

Your attitude will not be considered "optimistic", it is more like ugly Westerner coming in to save the day.

I believe you need to educate yourself on the cultural beliefs of Autism and it's effects on the family before riding in with
no "paper work, ie degree" to back you up. And the fact you are ASD holds even less weight with them.

A good start. It also talks about other cultures too.

academiccommons.columbia.edu/.../ac.../Cultural_Psych_ECKER.pdf‎

Granted the paper is 2010, but a start.

The first 6 pages deals with South Korea, and page 7 starts the Chinese beliefs on Autism

"Just like in South Korea, for the majority of autistic families in China, disability is
seen as the result of previous wrongdoing by parents or ancestors -- primarily of the
mother (McCabe 2007). The parents or ancestors are therefore blamed for having brought
autism to their family. The stigma around autism has resulted in discrimination not only
of the autistic child, but also of the family as a whole (McCabe 2007). A traditional
Chinese saying exemplifies the relationship between the family and the autistic child. The
saying goes, “In the first 10 years, observe the father and love the son. In the last 10
years, observe the son and respect the father” (McCabe 2007 p.43). In other words, in the
beginning of life the father’s influence is what shapes the son into a son to be loved, and
at the end of life how well the father shaped the son to succeed will determine how well
the father should be respected. With autism, the later success in the child’s life will be
very limited because of his sickness. Consequently, some parents try to hide their autistic
children from society altogether to prevent the loss of respect of the father as well as the
respect of the family in society."...

And if you live in the States, a little closer to home

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/nyreg ... d=all&_r=0

Some other links for grins and giggles

http://www.ghjournal.org/jgh-print/spri ... -in-china/

http://safchina.org/researchupdate/en/index.php

Medical and mental health issues are viewed in an entirely different light in China than the West. You have cultural issues also relating to belief systems.

I worked for people from Hong Kong and Beijing. The Western attitudes for "implementing changes" are pretty well toast until you understand where THEY are coming from. You bring up
what is "wrong" will go over like dog crap at a wedding buffet table.

I was told repeatedly Westerners never shut up and listen. Also they have no respect for hierarchy. Which is true, lol....

Was your internship at Stars and Rain?

As for hitting. I live in the States. Ex pats from China and Korea have no problem giving kids a scream down with a hit for perceived misbehaving. Like the teacher oversharing the child wasn't listening. The American parent might give that factoid a shrug. I've heard many a Chinese parent scream how dare the kid disrespect the teacher like that. Then go into a Mandarin rant. Granted, there are plenty Americans that have no qualms breaking out the belt, hair brush, wood spoon or hand when little Bella or Jakob gets sassy or surly.
(I don't agree, but you have to acknowledge what is going on).

Hope this gives you food for thought. Your heart is kind, but your attitude needs a little fine tuning or no one at the school will listen.


First of all, thank you for being so kind in your response. I came across as a bit of an idiot, in retrospect, and you were very nice about it and referred me to more resources, which I appreciate.

The first link you included (the pdf) came back with a 404 error, so I couldn't read it. As for the others, they were very good reads. I had no idea about the Korean community - my understanding of other Asian countries is basically grounded in whatever understanding I have of Chinese culture, which is a foundation but does mean I don't know specifics. So that was interesting. As to everything you said about Chinese culture, I kind of had heard most of those things already - but I'd never put them together in the way those articles did. Like I knew most of the facts, but I didn't have a perspective of what they added up to. So thank you. Also, extra thanks because I didn't know that they don't use the DSM. I'll have to investigate further what Taiwan uses, because I'm not sure if it'd be the same.

I didn't understand your reference to a Stars and Rain internship. Was that a joke or is that an actual place? If you were wondering, my internship was at an eyeglass firm. I shadowed the boss (which basically involved listening to all proceedings and pouring water for important guests, plus being a bit of a face person), and when she went on a business trip I traveled to different stores training employees. All of it was in Chinese and interacting in Chinese culture.

I don't know about screaming parents, but like I said I had Chinese friends (in China) who were beaten by their teachers, and when I told people I was afraid of my teacher I was given an approving nod. (Part of the reason I was so scared during my internship was that my boss was friends with my teacher and I knew that if I did something wrong it would go straight back to my teacher.) My teacher is also very VERY good at impressing respect for hierarchy and Chinese culture into his students. This might not be related, but reminded me of how day one of our kuai ban (快板儿 if you're familiar with Chinese - basically means fast clapper) class he let his own teacher smack everyone on the face who had come in late (myself included and, in a moment that caused her to lose huge amounts of face and I thought went a bit too far, one of the other teachers).

Already said this in the first reply, but I have no plans to tell people what they're doing is wrong, just mention alternatives (and not in a "do this not that" way, just in a "this is something that I've seen done or heard is effective" and not mention what it's supposed to replace).

Also, sorry for not saying this before - I guess I forgot to attach the signature that does the disclaiming for me - but I'm not actually AS. I get mistaken (in person) for someone AS very frequently and am almost definitely BAP, but I'm not AS. My younger sister (who is an adult) is on the spectrum and that's how I learned about it. Having learned from the misconception that happened before, I'm going to clarify in advance just in case this turns out to be a problem because I realize it's really easy for me to fall into the narrative of "family member who claims they understand autism just by virtue of being related and tries to speak for people on the spectrum when they don't have autism themselves." I promise you I don't fit that stereotype I seem to fall so neatly into. Unfortunately, you're just going to have to take my word on it. Or I guess you could read my website (in the signature), which would probably bust that misconception, if you happen to have it. On the whole speaking for people with autism without having it myself concern, I try REALLY hard not to do that, and my sister reads everything I write about autism and I run everything autism-related I do by her (including the first post).

Thanks again for your feedback and the resources! :)


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Tawaki
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12 Jul 2013, 4:27 pm

in Google browser type, which is the paper's title.


"Cultural Belief Systems in Autism and the Effects on Families"

There is a cliff note version, but the PDF has the real article.

The author is J. Ecker out of Columbia University. 2010.



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12 Jul 2013, 4:31 pm

http://www.guduzh.org.cn/Default.aspx?a ... cn/English

"Beijing Stars and Rain is China's first non-governmental educational organization dedicated to serving children with autism. Founded in 1993, we have helped over 6,000 autistic children and their families through our unique parent-training course, which gives parents the skills neccessary to educate their own children. We have also recently opened a group home for six teenagers with autism and related disabilities. Stars and Rain is a pioneer within China and welcomes all kinds of support, whether financial, in skills and expertise or as a volunteer working one-on-one with an autistic teenager in our group home. "

Since there doesn't seem like there are many places that specializes in Autism in China, I thought you had worked at this place. They take volunteers.



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12 Jul 2013, 5:15 pm

"Some studies found that Mainland China has the most negative attitude towards disability of any country in the world." Wow. Okay, definitely didn't know that. Knew it wasn't good, of course, but the world's a really big place and I wouldn't have predicted it'd finish dead last. It was also really interesting to read about autism from a Muslim community point of view.

I had actually never heard of Stars and Rain, as you can tell. Guess that five year plan to deal with autism more is working. The place I was at had about twenty students, max. I don't get the sense that it's government affiliated, either. Actually, I researched autism schools in the city I was at, and I found one...but it's not the school I was at. I'm starting to wonder if the place I was is even at all official.


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12 Jul 2013, 5:39 pm

BigSister wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. And when is China, do as the Chinese do. As another poster noted, trying to force liberal beliefs on others smacks of the very predatory imperialism that modern liberalism claims to decry and condemn. If you do this, you will be hated, and it will be hard to blame the Chinese. You need to show the same respect for their beliefs in China that we would want them to show for our beliefs here.

Bottom line: Leave your liberalism at home or don't go.


This puts me in an awkward position. If I say I condone imperialism, I sound terrible (and would be lying). If I say that I decry and condemn imperialism, I also sound terrible, because by the logic of this post, modern liberals make and fail to live up to that claim. It's a lose-lose no matter what I say. So I simply request that you take my word for it when I say that I decry and condemn imperialism.

I wouldn't be hated if I did what I was planning to do (especially since I had no firm plans, which is why I was asking for advice)....but I would be hated if I did what it sounded like I was planning to do. So no big deal on the misunderstanding, I get where it's coming from. As I said in my first reply, not trying to force anything on anyone.

I don't plan on leaving my beliefs at home. I just don't plan to force them on anyone, or even necessarily talk about them with anyone unless we're friends (and there we're talking about Chinese-culture friendship, not American-culture friendship), and I'll be open to new ideas.


Bigsister, we are judged by our actions rather than by our intentions. If you go to somebody else's country and try to tell them how to live, you would be called an "ugly American", which is a form of imperialism.

Let me give you an example. I spent Christmas 1983 in Alexandria, Egypt. There, not only were horses and buggies an interesting form of transportation, but by far the cheapest one. But many of the drivers would mercilessly whip their horse into going faster. Well, when we were in the buggy of one driver who was being extra zealous with the whip, one of my shipmates did say something. And we wound up walking the rest of the way.



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12 Jul 2013, 6:05 pm

Misunderstood again. I seem to be really bad at this. Did you read my second post? It was the general one, fifth post in the thread - wouldn't blame you if you hadn't, simply because I admittedly put a whole bunch of really long posts up on this thread and the answer to your question is only (mostly) in one of them, not the one made out specifically to you. The summary of the second post is

Quote:
I do not wish to ride in and save the day or force anything on anyone or tell someone what they're doing is wrong (which I apparently didn't convey well in the previous post). [...] I will not tell anyone what to do. That is a dumb idea, and I'm well aware of it.


Sorry if this is so confusing - I'm learning from this experience and will be much clearer in the future.


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12 Jul 2013, 10:22 pm

As an autistic of Chinese descent, I have heard the situation of folks like me there. My cousin is BAP and lives there but he was in mainstream education. Most people with my degree of profundity would be educated at home, like I was when my family sent me there for awhile to be taken care of by grandparents. Unfortunately there isn't much of an understanding of autistic folks because non-Western cultures in general have far fewer resources.

I wouldn't overemphasize beliefs in 'karma' because while somebody might say 'what did I do to you in a past life', it's more like a Westerner saying 'why God'.

The physical discipline issue is different from that of understanding autism. Physical discipline is common for both NT and ASD kids in most non Western cultures (a friend experienced it in her Haitian culture). Actually I got smacked for "asking stupid questions". In terms of this issue, as well as stuff like hitting a kid for disrespecting the teacher, that's part of life there rather than related to ASD/NT issues.

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I remember talking to one of the employees about a six year old. I suggested that since he knows bus routes so well he could take people's fares when he grows up because he'd know how far it was and the cost (mostly joking: the boy was six, after all - who knows what he'll be interested in when he's an adult).

The lady took me seriously and turned to me and said no, he'd never be capable of anything like that. I might be missing a cultural cue here (I know optimism is more of a Western trait), but to say something like that when a boy is six (and no, she wasn't joking) just struck me as extremely pessimistic in a not good kind of way - and she believed it. So I figured having multiple perspectives on autism there, like people on the spectrum can be successful when they grow up, etc, might be a really good thing.


It's good to bring up that autistic folks can do a lot of stuff. There has always been a niche for disabled people in a traditionally agricultural society such as China and sometimes a caretaker or teacher can get super stressed and be discouraged. Even in urban areas, SSI/VESID doesn't exist, developmentally disabled folks do get low-level jobs. But saying there is parental neglect is an imperialistic attitude for sure. If you have 1 kid, and 2 parents and 2 grandparents, neglect would be an unlikely scenario.

Again keep in mind that non-Western societies do not have the services that the West does. Kids don't usually have aides. People don't have Medicaid. Kids who can't function in mainstream education aren't eligible for most universities. These things come from a broad-based system where people have very high incomes, most Chinese NT people do not attend university and many don't go to high school. It's not that they do not care it's just less likely that a disabled person can succeed in a 'middle class career'.

My suggestions are to stay upbeat about autistic people's prospects in general, and neurodiversity, but do not assume that people are neglecting their kids. They are trying as hard as they can and maybe it's good to chat with parents about stuff like sensory issues, which they may not be aware of. Also this may be hard for you, if you didn't grow up with physical discipline but everyone is spanked there hardcore. NT or ASD. Again this isn't just a Chinese thing it's non-Western in general. This is the part that is truly, I emphasize, a cultural difference.

I also strongly suggest that you do eventually get OT / PT training and go to autism parent support groups there, just learn about autistic culture there, read autism books by Chinese authors and take in the general mood of the place.

Quote:
and I'm 100% sure that I'm the only one with the perspective I have on autism.
This is not a productive attitude to have imo but just my $.02.



BigSister
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13 Jul 2013, 3:25 am

Reply to EsotericResearch:

Actually, the neglect thing didn't come from me. Talking to the Chinese employees, they were talking about neglect. Although neglect is probably the wrong word for it, and I'm sorry about that - this is one of the problems with switching languages, not having complete proficiency, etc. It's also been a whole year, so I can't quote them word for word anymore. It was some kind of bad situation at home with the parents and that's the best I can describe it without going back there and asking for clarification. So me saying neglect isn't part of my attitude - I'm not judging them nor assuming anything happened, I'm just trying to quote/translate best I can what the employees said. I got the vague feeling that a lack of education was part of the problem among the families where there were issues at home, which is why I mentioned chatting with parents.

Also, I already thought this and it was confirmed in one of the resources Tawaki sent me, that people whose children have disabilities can have more than one child. I also think that the employees said the parents of the children having problems at home (can't describe it better than that) were rural and, although I know rule application varies, etc, they tend to be allowed to have more than one child if their first child is a girl even if disabilities aren't involved. Almost all of our Chinese roommates in the program I was studying through, save for the boys, had siblings because they were all from rural areas. So odds are decent that these families have more than one child.

Actually, the friend that saw the hitting was Haitian, pretty used to getting hit herself, and happy to discuss it in detail in our classes, which makes this thing she was uncomfortable talking about more concerning. It just didn't sound like what was going on there was the same as what went on at schools. I mentioned this in another reply, but I actually did get smacked by a teacher while I was over there myself. I did not freak out. I did not sue the school. I did not tell the teacher that was wrong. I simply apologized for being late. So it's not the smacking bit that I'm concerned about. Not thrilled (I don't like being smacked myself and I don't like it when others are either), but not as big of a deal even though my first post kind of made it sound that way, for which I apologize. I get that there are cultural issues at play, I respect cultural differences, and I'm not going to be an imperialist who tells people what to do. I mentioned the smacking because it's the only thing I saw with my own eyes and lends credence to the possible things my friend alluded to, but refused to describe in detail, which is where I get concerned. What she alluded to didn't sound like regular discipline for NT kids, like the spanking you mentioned. Hitting/whacking children is pretty normal and I get that. Although I realize my knowledge of China/Chinese culture is far from complete, I've never heard of mainstreamed kids getting put into painful holds at the very least, which is why this sounded like an AS difference and something they were doing to try to train the kids. It seemed like they might be open to alternate methods of training the children, especially since they got help from abroad in even making the school, and though I admit to not having the knowledge myself, that's why I was turning to you guys for help. For suggestions. For other things that work. I had and have no plans to tell them what to do. Not even going to say "This is wrong, do this instead." I'd just considered telling them about a training method I've heard of (not even comparing it to their method, just mentioning it in a respectful way which reflects my very deservedly low position in the hierarchy), and letting them do what they want with it. Maybe this is imperialist of me, but I don't like seeing kids get hurt (not just smacking, although I don't like that either, but whatever my friend alluded to) and if there's something I can do about it without offending people and being respectful of cultural differences, I will.

I'm not upset with the misunderstandings, as I've said many times. Or rather, I am (to be honest, there's only so many times I can be called an imperialist in 24 hours without having that take a toll on my emotions), but I don't blame anyone. My original post assumed a lot of background knowledge, which you all don't have and was really dumb of me not to realize. You can't know the source of information about the school was a girl who was used to being beaten herself unless I tell you, which I didn't mention in my first post. You wouldn't know that my thoughts on neglect (admittedly, possibly the wrong word) came not from my assumptions but from what employees said because I didn't tell you that. I'm always conflicted because, at least in the NT world, there's always this emphasis on being concise, only including the main point, etc. Myself, I tend to defy that, which is why I write essay-emails, etc. But my more normal NT friends have been pushing me not to do this as much, which is why I was trying so hard to be concise in my first post. I left out a LOT of background information in the process, though, and that's where problems arose. I may edit it and add in a lot (otherwise no one's going to read this whole thread and I'm in for another 24-48 hours of being told I'm an imperialist and defending myself which is an extremely painful prospect for me, although I admit I have still learned a lot from the more kind, insightful replies such as yours and really do appreciate it).

I have learned a huge amount from this experience, so I'm glad I had it. Tawaki taught me about autism in different cultures, you gave me a better understanding of Chinese perspectives, I had some serious self-reflection time checking to see if everyone's thoughts about me were correct (which is good to have on occasion), I learned that one of the big problems I keep falling into (not just on this site) is that I often appear to fit many narratives even if I don't (in this case the narrative of the Ugly American) and don't realize that and consciously deflect it as I write, I learned that not everyone reads the whole thread (not talking about you here, just a general lesson), and I learned the all important lesson of including sufficient background in a post. But I hope no one resents me for wishing it shifted in a "BigSister is not an imperialistic ugly American" direction because I still think it doesn't apply, at least not in the way that's being discussed, and on top of that it's rather painful. If I say this experience has been painful, I'm not referring directly to you, just the thread in general. I'll go back in and add more information to the first post which should prevent some future misunderstandings (although I have a rather pessimistic view on that part). Thanks so much for your feedback - you did your best to be kind and understanding even though I sounded like a classic Ugly American jumping to conclusions and I genuinely learned a lot from your words. :)


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I'm BAP and a big sister to an Autistic woman. We made some websites to help kids on the spectrum and parents understand autism in a positive way: http://www.teachmeaboutautism.com/


alwaystomorrow
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13 Jul 2013, 6:24 am

I think the main thing you need to do is decide for yourself:

Will you be able to keep shtum when you witness kids being smacked etc until you have sufficient status to intervene, which might be difficult or even impossible to attain within the time frame of your stay?
And if so, will you be able to bear the strain of not being able to say something when you desperately want to over an extended period of time?

I think volunteering would be a great experience, you'll learn from the work, and ultimately, even (or especially?) if you don't speak up, the others will learn from you -- if you don't smack the kids and that works, others will see it works and maybe rethink the way they do things. I think that would probably be much more effective than trying to argue your point, plus it's something you can do from day one.

The "Stars and Rain" thing someone was talking about is 北京星星雨教育研究所, a place in Beijing that takes care of and for kids with autism. The founder has an autistic child herself, and from what I gather, it was mainly founded as a place where affected parents could get help and advice from others.