ASD overload or just being a jerk?

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I have come to the realisation that my spouse is probably on the spectrum. Yes, I know it's an amateur diagnosis, but it just makes perfect sense. Stimming, special interests, inability to lie, clumsiness, meltdowns, withdrawal, sensory issues and so much of the behaviour.

However, my husband is also an abusive jerk.

I can now see so much of his behaviour is related to sensory or social overload. Such as disappearing for hours or so when his family was visiting when he knows I hate dealing with them. Or his lack of awareness around certain issues or his single focus or his deathly dull monologues.

But sometimes he deals with things in jerkwad ways. Telling me I'm a bad mother (in front of our son). Telling my son he's a bad, bad boy. (He's not). Calling us names. Blowing up over small things. Telling my son that his mother is abandoning him when I just need a bit of a break to pursue my own interests or take a shower (when he was a baby). The constant criticism and disinterest.

I struggle to see where the line is between typical Asperger behaviour and being a jerk. He seems to react the same way (with rage) when I approach him on issues either way. I am trying to be more understanding to his sensory issues and some of his behaviour - but I need to be able to deal with issues in a constructive way when his behaviour is damaging to me or my son. I'm sick of walking on eggshells.

So I have a question to HFAs in particular: can you tell when you're behaving badly? Can you tell if there's a difference between things related to ASD or if you're just being a jerk? Can you tell at the time? Can you tell in retrospect? Is there a better time to approach him on important matters of behaviour? In the moment, or later?

I'm trying to get my ducks in a row so I can get a divorce as I simply can't live like this anymore, but in the meantime I want to do damage limitation on my psyche and for my son. Nor do I want to try to push him into things which are just too much for him. I will have to deal with him for a long time as we do have a child together - and I'd really like things to be friendly and positive if they can be.

There´s a lot of knowledge to be had through videos on Youtube: "Ask Doctor Tony", or simply "Tony Attwood".
He is the master expert, and he is a master in explaning things for lay people.
Anyway: HFA isn´t an excuse for bad behavior. Maybe you should let your spouse watch those videos.
He is possibly not aware how bad his behavior really is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-Uqm74g2ew
He probably has good reasons for disappearing when his family is coming.

And another good page:
http://community.autism.org.uk/discussi ... -aspergers

Last edited by Jensen on 15 Oct 2013, 8:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

I'm sorry about your situation, and I hope that your family will be able to heal (whether together or apart). Here's my input:


ASD:

These behaviors are most likely related to his condition, if he is indeed ASD. While annoying to others, they are part and parcel to the condition.

Jerk:





These behaviors aren't acceptable for anyone, unless their functioning is so severely impaired that they literally cannot control it.

Undecided without context:






Your question:



Yup, I can tell when it's overload. For me, there's an overwhelming feeling of starting to withdraw from the inside (even from myself), and a slightly panicky confusion. During this time, I will snap at people and be unable to focus on anything other than what's overloading me. When it comes to knowing when you're being a jerk, it's a little more tricky. If I am truly being a jerk (insulting someone the way you described, saying psychologically hurtful comments, etc.), I will know it. However, I'm not likely to do these things. Sometimes, though, what I say (or my facial expression, or tone of voice) will seem rude to other people, when it didn't seem rude to me at all. That causes problems, because they suddenly get upset and I have no idea why. Then it's a mess trying to explain that that wasn't my intent, and I didn't know it would be hurtful. Cases like these are usually when I am telling a truth (that they don't want to hear), saying something too bluntly, or when I am not modulating my tone of voice/facial expressions to match my audience. This is difficult to do because it is not natural; it must be learned and practiced.

I usually cannot tell at the time, unless it's obviously jerkish behavior (insulting, etc.). When it's the result of my ASD, I don't realize I said/did anything wrong until I experience the other person's reaction. Most likely, it would be a more positive and constructive experience if you approached him about his ASD behaviors at a different time--not in the moment. However, if he is just being a jerk, he needs to be told that this behavior is never acceptable, and tell him why (it's hurtful, etc.).

Unfortunately, in an ASD-NT marriage, the NT spouse will need to make some accommodations. There are some things ASD folks just can't control (sensory issues, for example). However, that does not mean that the ASD spouse doesn't. He will need to learn proper behavior, and there will be varying degrees of success.

While it seems from what you've told us that some of his behaviors can be explained by ASD, some of them cannot be. Regardless, you have to do what you think is best for yourself and your child. Good luck to you and yours.

Thanks Gretchyn, very helpful... I can see in retrospect that a lot of his behaviour can be explained by ASD - like the disappearing when his parents visit. Lord knows I WANTED to disappear when they came over. They're awful. We've actually come to an agreement on this... when they come, I greet them, usually serve a nice lunch for them (I'm a great cook.) And then I do disappear. As I worry about social niceties, I lie about a previous commitment or I actually make a commitment that gets me out of the house. When I'm not there, I don't feel awkward if he disappears upstairs for a while. I don't care.

I do wonder how much he is able to control it. A lot of his ASD behaviours did bother me and he comes from a verbally and physically abusive family so he had a lot to overcome anyway - but before we had a child he dealt with matters a lot better. Also my expectations were much lower - I'm pretty independent and happy to do things on my own. He needed to do more and I expected more support after our son was born. But also maybe that's just how he sees family life - related to his upbringing. At any rate, it is unacceptable.

Whether he is or isn't on the spectrum, I'm treating him as if he is and following some of the tips NT spouses get and things are a bit easier. But he's still an abusive spouse. It makes it hard to confront him on the behaviour OR find a work-around on the ASD stuff (as we did with his parents' visits) because he absolutely explodes if I say anything. It's quite scary.

When you know you've behaved badly because of an overload (and I do know everyone can do this - I do this sometimes.) Do you try to make it up later? Do you think that having a diagnosis is helpful in terms of dealing with others - that is does it help you say "Look I had a little meltdown, sorry I snapped at you, I was feeling really overwhelmed."

In this case I'd guess its some of each.

For your question about bad behavior - I can't tell. But my bad behavior is caused by me not being able to handle things, not by me wanting anything. I just am in an adrenaline state, which usually makes me freeze, but sometimes makes me fight. But I'm completely unable to tell that its going on until I'm calmed down, I'm convinced I'm being completely rational in the moment and just trying to explain and communicate with people, even while I'm arguing with people, and accusing them of things that make no sense. Because I cannot see what my internal state is (in general) so I cannot predict when a meltdown is coming from that. My meltdowns are strange (I lose control, start hating myself, go into sobbing and/or screaming just no-words fits, and try to rationally have conversations with people which are actually things like telling them that they purposefully go out of their way to ruin my life as much as they can and that they're abandoning me and that they just want to hurt me as much as possible).

So, some of those behaviors might go down if he's less overloaded too, and make him easier to live with.

None of this is an excuse, of course. We don't have permission to treat people however, even though its hard for us. I might not understand what's going on inside me, but I need to go through therapy to work on my meltdowns not hurting others even though I will have the overload still (and have made HUGE progress on this). And absolutely we need to fix the mistakes we make during those outbursts.


ASD doesn't mean abusive, but unfortunately, ASD doesn't mean not abusive either. Many of us have been drastically hurt in our past. Some, are incredibly controlling. It varies person to person. Actually, one of the people who's been overly controlling of my environment until I realized what was going on and escaped, was another person on the autistic spectrum.

yes, i can get nasty when i'm overloaded.

i'm definitely aware what i'm doing is wrong (by my own standards) and while when i was younger i probably would have blamed others, now i know it's my responsibility, and i usually feel remorse and try to make amends.

i also come from an abusive background and feel that has more to do with it than my AS although being AS makes it harder to control and deal with.

i got some anger management therapy in the past and it was helpful, and showed me i was making choices and needed to make different ones - for instance, not giving myself *permission* to go off. when i changed my expectations of myself and others, it got a LOT better. not perfect, but once i stopped letting go of my temper so easily, i also found it was easier to control it all around.

if i literally was not able to control it, i think that would be a good argument for not having the privilege of living as a free woman. not as punishment but simply the socially responsible thing to do would be to curtail my freedom in some way. not putting this out as a suggestion but just as an observation. if i had a dog running around biting people, i would expect to put it on a leash at a minimum, no? so no under no circumstances is it okay.

very sorry to hear you are having to go through this situation and make these kind of choices.

I would be utterly surprised if, after talking to someone, they came back to me and said, "You were a heartless jerk." I was? Where did that come from? Seriously, I'd be surprised. I pride myself on always trying to say the right things, but the fact is, people have come back to me and said I was being a jerk. ASD blinded me to that fact. I understand that now and it's one of the reasons I don't bother hanging out with people at all.

/sigh

and i yelled at my boyfriend not half an hour after posting this, because he was pressuring me to get up and go grocery shopping with him, and i was still rubbing sleep out of my eyes.

i have a long way to go.

You can have an ASD and also be a jerk. My ex had an ASD and he was a insensitive jerk. He was also a big hypocrite and your husband is one too. We're not together anymore. He was also emotionally abusive. You couldn't really tell unless you were in a relationship with him.

If it was an overload, I will apologize. I must admit apologizing is not easy, though. It's easier with an overload because I really feel like I couldn't control it, which is embarrassing in retrospect, but really not my fault. When it's because of a misunderstanding, it's much more difficult to apologize because I don't think I should be penalized that my brain works differently. I feel bad that the other person is hurt, but since it wasn't intentional, I feel that apologizing is admitting undue guilt, which is unfair to me. With that thinking, instead of me having to apologize for being insensitive, perhaps the other person should apologize for being overly sensitive.

Does the diagnosis help? Sometimes. With strangers or acquaintances, no. They don't know my diagnosis, and just dismiss me as a weirdo jerk. Fine. With my husband, it is usually better now that he knows there is a bona fide reason for my behavior and I'm not just being a baby. That's when he remembers, at least. Since I was just diagnosed last year at 33 and we've been together for 14 years, sometimes he forgets. That's understandable, and he usually relaxes if I gently remind him.

My overloads are almost exactly like what gretchyn described.
*Does not become nonverbal unless overload is coupled with extreme emotional stress. In that case my functioning level literally rivals that of a lamppost. I look like one too.
*Blows up over the smallest things when overloaded, not like a meltdown but just extremely irritated and maybe manic. It takes maybe three or four sentences for me to start getting annoyed.

I do make amends but definitely not by apologizing or something like that. I warn anyone who tries to talk to me when I'm overloaded first that I might not be rational at all. Or I just tell them to stop talking for a while.
I think some might perceive this as jerk behavior. I know my mother does.
Lastly, I don't do this on purpose. Never had and never will.

It's really interesting the views on apologies. I guess this is another area of friction. I see an apology as a natural social lubricant. When I screw up and act like a jerk (or make a mistake, however genuine) for whatever reason - I try to go back and apologise. I apologise for the impact of stuff even if it's not my fault.* It's amazing how well it works. I made a mistake the other day and somebody jumped down my throat for it. I told them that I had made a mistake, owned up to it, tried to fix (it was fixable, not just hurt feelings) and said I'd make it up to them if I couldn't fix it. (It was fixed.) She came back and was so thankful for the work I do for a youth club and apologetic for jumping on me.

I have been very resentful that my husband never apologises even when very clearly in the wrong. Even over small stuff. Even over big stuff, where I said this is really important to repairing the relationship. Instead of apologising he kept defending his clearly undefendable actions with these absolutely bizarre rationalisations. I was very hurt by this. Honestly, I don't give a ** anymore as I don't think he has the capacity to see how bad he's been. But I would dearly love some of the behaviour to change, because I don't want to have to cut off all relations or feel that I have to protect my son from verbal abuse from his father.



___
*of course, I was raised in the Southern US and now live in the UK - two cultures that value politeness and apologies beyond all reasonable measure.

Have you mentioned your ASD suspicions to your husband? If he ends up seeing a psychiatrist and getting a diagnosis and a therapist who can work with autistics, he might have an easier time understanding and modifying his behavior. If he's clueless about it, it's completely understandable why he is resistant...he doesn't realize that his behaviors have some basis in neurology. Again, this doesn't account for being a jerk. But I can tell you as someone with an adult diagnosis that this realization made me totally reframe my entire life. Suddenly it all made sense, and I was able to forgive myself for some qualities that I thought were personal defects, but are really due to brain function. It's also helped me be able to differentiate controllable behavior from uncontrollable.

After your husband sorts himself out a little bit, you can try therapy as a couple, too. That will help you both be able to work through your difficulties with each other, including compromising and retraining for both of you.

You haven't specified it, but I do want to mention that if he is physically abusive, don't stay. That is never excusable. Ever.

Edit: typo

Last edited by gretchyn on 16 Oct 2013, 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Maybe it's because of his theory of mind.

In most people with Aspergers, their theory of mind is not as sophisticated as a neurotypicals. This means they have trouble understanding from other peoples point of view. For instance, not grasping the fact that you get pretty upset by some of the things your husband says. He may not be aware that he is hurting you so bad.


Having a limited theory of mind can sometimes make you come off as a jerk.

There's no physical abuse. I don't think he'd be that stupid. But he's come close during meltdowns, when I've been seriously afraid. This hasn't happened for a while. Also I'm a lot less afraid of getting hit these days, since I've started playing rugby and I regularly take violent physical contact (and dish it out).

Personally, I'm completely done with this relationship - after he told me that he loved me less because I'd had a difficult birth with our son because he'd been so traumatised by it all - a big part of my love died. I could feel it happening.

Also he seems to have sensory issues regarding touch - particularly sexual touch - so even when I was willing to re-kindle it was really difficult because I needed the sex to repair the pair bonding. It was something he was unable or unwilling to do. He would be equally unkind with sexual rejection. It's something I can no longer live with (or perhaps live without). I don't want to live the rest of my life in a technically or actually sexless marriage.

But family counselling may well be a good idea to resolve co-parenting issues. I've been afraid to mention my suspicions re. an Aspergers diagnosis in case he reacts badly.

But I have to say that this forum has really helped me to understand him better. I can see now that some of his behaviour is down to the way he's wired. Some of it is almost certainly due to his abusive upbringing. But I have to do what's best for me - and I would really like to have a loving relationship with someone who can meet my needs.

Meltdowns are a wild card. The mind loses its ability to maintain objectivity. It gets confused, it gets cornered.

You need space and time to get out of a meltdown. Being crowded, noise, being pressured, are anathema to it. Being told to behave, do this, go there, answer me; will make the situation worse. Because I can't answer you, stop demanding me to answer you, I can't.

Meltdowns are themselves on a spectrum.
1. Typical stress or sensory driven meltdown.
10. Being cornered and demands being made on you while you can't escape, can't think, can't answer, and can’t escape (twice because it's important).

The mind is a tangled place. When you're thoughts get mixed and lost in transit. The only way back is time and quiet.

Rude for me when I don't like someone, or have no respect for them. Then I don't care what they think, and I'm not afraid to tell them what I think. I never want to be rude to those I respect or love. I often come across as rude, but it's usually me seeing something funny about the situation and commenting on it, being an inappropriate comment.

I haven't met many people I consider rude or jerks. I do remember one in particular, the husband of my mum's friend. I hated him, he was a condescending jerk. He had a superiority complex, and he would actively put other people down at every opportunity.

Could you explain further what you're husband does that is jerkish?