Worthlessness and being differently adapted.

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I keep hearing this banded about wherever I go, be it here or on other forums. I even hear about it in real life from therapists and support workers and drs and the like.

Yet...what does it really mean exactly?

As I am sat here in the warm in Cromer library borrowing one of their pc's before nipping off to see if they have reopened the pier along with the Cafe Reef so I can have my usual cappuccino and fridge cake, I thought I would ponder this question and see if I could get some feed back on it in terms of how valid such a concept really is outside of our narrow cultural biases and beliefs.

Firstly, when people say "I feel worthless" as a part of their depression, I feel this is inaccurate. I, personally, do not experience feelings of worthlessness (there is no such thing to my mind) so have spent considerable time pondering its nature. What do feelings of worthlessness feel like? These do not seem to be feelings I experience or recognise. Then I realised that is because worthlessness is not a feeling, it is a belief. Beliefs are often made up of thoughts, so it is basically a way of thinking.

People believe they are worthless and so experience the associated or relevant feelings as a result (would anyone like to be brave enough to tell me what those feelings are please? I shall pose the same question to my therapist if I ever get an actual appointment to see her...they take their time).

Secondly, ok you feel worthless. Worthless compared to what? In what way? Do you think you could be more specific please? On what criteria do you base your belief that you are worthless and what evidence do you have to support this notion? What about evidence that does not support this notion?

Is the criteria on which you base your worthlessness culturally defined? Personally defined? Defined by the media? Your relatives? ....??????

Where did they get their criteria from and how realistic is it?

Cultural beliefs are not the same as an absolute truth about the very nature of existence. Does worthlessness really exist in nature if we do not anthropomorphise it?

Let us think about evolution (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Evolution is often spoken about as though it has intelligent design. It really does not. It is far more random than that and is based more on chance. Evolution did not create characters or adaptations on purpose because it decided it's newest model needed an up date so it could survive up coming changes in the environment.

Simply put organisms have a set of characters or adaptations that allow them to flourish in some environments, flounder in others and all sorts of shades of grey in between. There are few (if any) right or wrong adaptations, good or bad, perfect or imperfect (these are human ideals that do not exist in the natural world) inferior and superior and so on.


There are only those characters and adaptations which may or may not be suited to the organisms present environment. A once successful organism can be wiped out by one or 2 small environment change to which its adaptations are not suited, allowing new organisms to dominate. This goes to show that what is a beneficial trait in one context/environment/situation may be useless in another. Ergo you cannot generalise in the way that society does when it talks about flaws and worthlessness.

Please add no value judgments to these characters and adaptations...value judgments are man made and defined by your culture etc. They are not objective, relevant or useful in terms of understand survival and evolution.

Humans have a somewhat handy traits though, we can adapt to our environment, create equipment to help us adapt to an environment if we can't do it naturally or we can change our environment to work for us instead.

You are not worthless, or useless, or defective if you do not fair well in an environment that is not suited to your particular set of adaptations. All it means is that your adaptations are not well suited to the environment you are in.

Think of human society as one possible environment. Just because you have problems in society the way it is set up (which is predominantly for people with different adaptations to yourself...numbers do not make those adaptations better or more normal by the way...junk food is mass produced as well but it sure as hell is not necessarily good for you...it tends to be full of s**t...read into that as you will) that does not mean that you would not flourish in an environment that is more suited to you.

Ergo whatever the cause of my difficulties and as my development was different to that of peers growing up (older than my years in some ways, behind my peers in others) I prefer to consider myself differently adapted rather than defective, disordered and worthless.


This is why I don't experience feelings of worthlessness. Firstly they are not feelings, they are thoughts/beliefs, secondly i have feelings but they respond to my personal belief system not the one society says I should have (I always did have a brain with a mind of its own...) and thirdly I am aware that there is such a thing as variation even with a species and that those variations, even if not present in high numbers, are no necessarily the mark of a disorder.

Society needs to stop being an arrogant superior smuck by assuming that just because it is full of so called 'normal' Neurotypical people that they are only way a human being should be made.

I hate the worthlessness belief system, I think it is hideous and is one of the main causes of prejudice and discrimination in our world today. It really needs to be abolished for something a little more egalitarian based as well as objective.

Last edited by bumble on 10 Dec 2013, 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry if there are any typos. It was a long post that I wrote off the top of my head. I hope it makes sense to someone. I have tried to explain what I mean as well as I could.

I am now off to see if there are any vintage arts and crafts book in the library and then I am going to see if the Cafe reef is open yet so I can have my fridge cake and coffee.

Failing that I shall head to Norwich and do a tour of the Castle dungeons if I have time.

I hate staying in bed when I feel depressed..it makes things worse and is boring.

Feelings are often not rational, so asking for rational explanations seems bizarre to me.
I feel worthless lately. I have a degree, and can't seem to find a job. I know I have value, but can't seem to relate that to potential employers. So if they can't see enough value in me to give me a job, then what value do I have? If I can't contribute to my family in the way that we most need for me to contribute, then what use am I?
In this case, the feelings are a result of my failure to meet up to my responsibility to my family.
I know that this is temporary, and that I do more for my family than mere supply money, and that my failure to get a job is as much about the employers' failure to see my potential as my failure to convince them through my aspie behaviour, but, as I said, feelings are not rational.
I get depressed, and consider the things that I have tried that did not work, the people who politely took my information only to never contact me, the vague descriptions of where I should try instead from people who thought they were being nice and helpful, as they closed yet another door in my face, the attempts to make my resume stand out, but nothing changes, and the ongoing stress on my family as they wait and wait and wait for things to improve but they don't because of me, the weak link.
When this goes on for a very long time, it eats at your confidence and pride, and leaves you feeling................err..........what's the word? Oh yeah...WORTHLESS!! !

If a person was raised by abusive parents and told they were worthless their whole life, it would feel like being rejected by the only people who were supposed to love you.

If you get the idea that high school is a social world where everyone has a place determined by performance or attractiveness and you are neither attractive or a good performer (academic or athletic) then you would feel that there was no place for you and that others viewed association with you as a liability.

A woman may be romanced by a man that tells her she is the only one for him only to be dumped after he loses interest. She may feel she is "worthless" because she was rejected.

A young man may feel that he wants a career in marine science because he saw a Jacques Cousteau show and all through school he was encouraged to pursue this. He gets his first idea that he may not be able to do this sort of work when he can't find a job as a marine biologist. Instead of getting his doctorate and teaching this to others in order to make a living as others do who went down this same path, he may feel worthless because he failed to achieve his dreams.

A solution to the school problem is to change perspective such as seeing school as a soul destroying crucible that it can be in forging the links of the chains of socialism. School does not provide socialization as much as creating social dependency. If you don't fit the requirements of a system, then maybe the requirements or the system are wrong and not you.

A solution to being raised by abusive parents is to be able to shut a "door" such that further injury is not suffered. Next, is the rehabilitative process of repairing as much damage as one can and attempting to build those skills and perspectives that a more normal childhood would have produced.

A solution to the getting dumped problem is to get better at reading people so that you are less likely to be exploited in the future.

A solution to the job problem is to understand that teachers and parents may not have a clear understanding of the marketplace and their understandable exhortations may not in fact guide you to a realistic career.

"Worth" is a feeling we have regarding our relationship to others. If we have been injured developmentally in our ability to have functional relationships, we may feel that we are rejected because we are intrinsically "worth less".

When you combine such unpleasant experiences with various biological chemical conditions you can get feelings of depression that often accentuate feelings of worthlessness.

Some may try to counter worthlessness with self-esteem. However, this is like trying to cure frostbite with a blowtorch.

I see the solution to feelings of worthlessness as truth. For example, If I am awkward and slow to join in conversation, I may be worth less as a social companion to those who are looking for shallow camaraderie. However, I may have more worth to others who also are looking for depth.

In spite of social dynamics that try to make people monolithic, I see opportunities for relational connections in many places often at the fringes where those who are not so easily assimilated might reside.

I do not agree that evolution has anything of value. The idea that unfavorable mutations occur is easy to substantiate when one considers that it only takes one atom to go wrong and produce a tumor or cancer. The idea that favorable mutations occur requires millions of atoms all to right all at the same time (in a reproductive cell) while the identical mutations are occurring at the same time in another organism of the opposite sex so that the trait would be inheritable. In 150 years we have seen many cancers, but no favorable mutations.

I would agree that feelings of worthlessness can be moderated by learning to see through social constructs that may be lacking in truth. However, I think it may be a little insensitive to dismiss these feelings or fail to consider how depression can amplify them.

Worthlessness can only be experienced within a social context where value is given to people. If you don't have close relationships with other people, if you don't feel valued or loved or cared about by someone else, or yourself don't value someone else, you don't have the necessary...scaffolding to feel worthless. For instance, since I've had such a hard time fixing what's wrong with me in terms of being able to support myself, offer advice to others, succeed, etc, I've instead pulled away from socializing, (even though it doesn't appear that I have any innate issues socializing.) I am made happier for it, although I do end up missing out on the benefits of socializing.
It's the opposite feeling of being accepted or valued or desired. It seems strongly tied to not wanting to live.

See I still don't understand it as it is a value judgment and I am a practically minded person.

I go straight to practical solution and see no point in stopping to make value judgements about myself or others (I don't and can't see others as worthless either). It seems to be a pointless step in the problem solving process which is not integral to finding a solution. It is not even useful for motivation. The joy of seeing things come to fruition because it is a satisfying thing to see is quite enough.

As to evolution that is the point....defining a mutation as good or bad is a value judgment. Some will have more beneficial effect others will not depending on factors involved but good or bad is not really a part of how I look at it objectively.

I just see what is without judgment.

So once when I did a biology experiment and it failed (I needed some salad veg to putrefy and the buggers wouldn't do it), I was for a moment disappointed that my experiment had not work as it should have according to the text books. However I was quickly distracted by the question Why. Why did my salad veg not putrefy?

I really had not time whatsoever to bother with evaluating what that said about me as a person or my worth as a human being. Whether it was good or bad in certain ways, I was not bothered with either outside of providing me with further understanding.

This will sound insensitive but as a species we have become so driven by our emotions that it is becoming detrimental to us.

I am not saying its wrong for example to feel sad because someone just died. This is natural. This i can empathise with and will have great sympathy for the person who is suffering their loss. A bond has been broken, they have someone they were very close and it is natural to be in great pain at such times.

But all this ramming the head up the arse of the ego to wallow because you have not lived up to some ridiculous expectation seem to be a waste of time, especially as it cloud thinking and wil affect your ability to find a solution to the problem. Ergo I see it as counter productive or pointless.

I got the problem of the stubborn salad veg resolved without any self judgment at all and went on to get an A grade for the course.

A problem can be solved without bother with hours of self judgment that needlessy upsets your emotions and results in depression.

My depression mostly stems from feeling alone because I am the only person I know who understand my belief system and who thinks like I do (mostly practically). Also love was very important to me, I love affection and did not want to miss out on that in my life. I wanted someone to share my love and affection with. The fact that I am unable to find someone compatible is upsetting.

Sorry about typos...running low on battery power...need to type quick.

The concept of worthlessness and worth is a construct of human society so in that sense it must have some social value in that is related to how a person is perceived and fits in with accepted cultural norms.
If you are on the outside looking in and don't really feel connected to or immersed in the social world of the society you live in, it is likely that you will be aware of your innate sense of worth and confident in your own value system.
As an outsider, your feelings of worth and value come from your own constructed reality and innate sense of morality and compassion, rather than a perception of where you fit in to the social world of humans.
Obviously, if everyone were like this, it would be chaos, but there is a lot of value to be gotten from neurodiverse, eccentric, and innovative people whos' limitations and sense of worthiness are not defined by social norms.

I feel worthless because I can't go to school full time and I definitely cannot handle having a job. I also don't have very many friends. My diagnosis has made me feel extremely worthless. Now that I'm questioning my diagnosis I feel less worthless.

If someone were to feel worthless over a failed salad experiment, I would think they had extremely serious mental problems.
Worthlessness does not arise from single incident failures or short term problems. When problems continue for long enough, you can stop attributing the failure to others, and start attributing it to yourself, as you seem to be the lowest common denominator in every instance of failure. If I burn dinner tonight, it will not add to my feelings of worthlessness, although it might trigger a meltdown because I hate cooking as it is.

You know, you sound very young (teen), or a very egocentric person, maybe a robot, or perhaps a Vulcan. I know a of few aspies who sound that way. I did not state this to be offensive in any way. This is merely my observation. I stated this for the same reason I initially responded - I always hated feeling in the dark about how people saw me, so I am attempting to clarify how you appear to me, in case you find interest in that.

No young, not a robot, just not taught to feel worthless. As I was not taught that belief system I don't have it. simple as, It's a learned cultural thing, not some great truth about existence and life as we know it jim,

I'm not vulcan either.

Besides being cultural, I'd also say that personality comes into play. Some people can screw up throughout their lives without ever feeling worthless because they simply don't think in the sort of way that would lead to feelings of worthlessness.