Do aspies often operate at a much deeper level of analysis?
10 Feb 2014, 8:29 pm
Gizalba wrote:
Disclaimer: I don’t know whether I have AS so these observations are based on a very limited knowledge in this area. To ask some questions may help me understand the disorder better, even if it turns out not to apply to me.
Logical v illogical (bear with me - this first bit may not look linked to the title)
1. Logical:
Some stereotypes of autism, such as the mathematic or science genius, would suggest that NTs think aspies are highly logical people.
Also, taking things literally and struggling with the many twists of the English language (I don’t know if other languages have such a strong tendency to say things that literally mean completely what the person doesn’t mean in order to communicate something? :p) – mild example being ‘how are you?’ - surely if the person doesn’t want to stop and know how you are if the truth is detailed or a less than chipper response, and they just want to be friendly and say ‘hi’… why not just say ‘hi’?) – I personally would say that confusion over ‘how are you?’ often not really meaning ‘how are you?’, is a very logical way of looking at the world, even if it isn’t a ‘normal’ way of looking at the world, although I could be wrong.
2. Illogical:
I would have thought, contrary to the above stereotype of being very logical, aspies are seen by NTs as not very logical, judging by the fact that those with AS are often seen to have perceptions and views and reactions that ‘don’t make sense’? I am guessing people may view things such as meltdowns, extreme emotional reactions, to things that appear so small and insignificant to the onlooker, as also being completely irrational and illogical.
So my question is: Do you think that Aspie’s can be misunderstood in communication with NTs because they naturally operate at a much deeper level of analysis which is not neurotypical but is nevertheless probably very honest and reasonable logic if a reasonable person spent enough time breaking it all down enough to see the logic? Lol.
Hmm, not sure if I worded that very well, sorry if it makes no sense! Also – I hope none of this is offensive – they are just ponderings not judgements or conclusions.
Logical v illogical (bear with me - this first bit may not look linked to the title)
1. Logical:
Some stereotypes of autism, such as the mathematic or science genius, would suggest that NTs think aspies are highly logical people.
Also, taking things literally and struggling with the many twists of the English language (I don’t know if other languages have such a strong tendency to say things that literally mean completely what the person doesn’t mean in order to communicate something? :p) – mild example being ‘how are you?’ - surely if the person doesn’t want to stop and know how you are if the truth is detailed or a less than chipper response, and they just want to be friendly and say ‘hi’… why not just say ‘hi’?) – I personally would say that confusion over ‘how are you?’ often not really meaning ‘how are you?’, is a very logical way of looking at the world, even if it isn’t a ‘normal’ way of looking at the world, although I could be wrong.
2. Illogical:
I would have thought, contrary to the above stereotype of being very logical, aspies are seen by NTs as not very logical, judging by the fact that those with AS are often seen to have perceptions and views and reactions that ‘don’t make sense’? I am guessing people may view things such as meltdowns, extreme emotional reactions, to things that appear so small and insignificant to the onlooker, as also being completely irrational and illogical.
So my question is: Do you think that Aspie’s can be misunderstood in communication with NTs because they naturally operate at a much deeper level of analysis which is not neurotypical but is nevertheless probably very honest and reasonable logic if a reasonable person spent enough time breaking it all down enough to see the logic? Lol.
Hmm, not sure if I worded that very well, sorry if it makes no sense! Also – I hope none of this is offensive – they are just ponderings not judgements or conclusions.
Everything you said. If NT people would think logically about why someone had a meltdown when the tag on their shirt felt like knives, than they would understand. But they don't because it is not their reality.
_________________
Married to a undiagnosed Aspie and have 2 kids on the spectrum.
10 Feb 2014, 8:39 pm
Gizalba wrote:
Ashariel wrote:
I analyze the crap out of everything, and my personal journal is filled with bullet-point lists and complex outlines of whatever topic is on my mind. I assumed this was an autistic thing, but apparently not?
Haha, that is exactly what my journal is like! I am very curious to know whether that is something people with autism are more likely to do, or whether NTs are just as likely to do that.
My diary and my husband's journal are very different. I wrote deeply about my emotions related to relationships but not much about anything else deep. I was a teen though. His at the same age are filled with every thought in his head with analysis of subjects, emotions regarding relationships, and random stories. When we first met he had no interest in talking about the random things most NTs do. I did it to fill the uncomfortable lag in conversation. This I picked up from others because I learned what I saw. Soon I realized that it was just 'fill' and not to do it anymore. Most NTs almost exclusively talk about gossip and useless info.
_________________
Married to a undiagnosed Aspie and have 2 kids on the spectrum.
16 Feb 2014, 10:58 am
motherof2 wrote:
Gizalba wrote:
Ashariel wrote:
I analyze the crap out of everything, and my personal journal is filled with bullet-point lists and complex outlines of whatever topic is on my mind. I assumed this was an autistic thing, but apparently not?
Haha, that is exactly what my journal is like! I am very curious to know whether that is something people with autism are more likely to do, or whether NTs are just as likely to do that.
My diary and my husband's journal are very different. I wrote deeply about my emotions related to relationships but not much about anything else deep. I was a teen though. His at the same age are filled with every thought in his head with analysis of subjects, emotions regarding relationships, and random stories. When we first met he had no interest in talking about the random things most NTs do. I did it to fill the uncomfortable lag in conversation. This I picked up from others because I learned what I saw. Soon I realized that it was just 'fill' and not to do it anymore. Most NTs almost exclusively talk about gossip and useless info.
It is interesting to hear the comparison between your journal and your husband's. Can I clarify; I see your husband is an undiagnosed aspie and you have aspie kids - would you say you are NT then or are you also on the spectrum? Or are you NT with a higher number of autistic traits than average, seeing as you connected with your husband despite him having no interest in talking about most things NTs do? I wonder this because until I met my boyfriend I was never able to connect with anyone properly and not get bored of them and thought I'd never find anyone who could accept all the alone time I need in a relationship. My boyfriend doesn't seem to have that many autistic traits in comparison to me, but I get on so well with him because he doesn't talk about 'typical' things, he is very unconventional, therefore all my weird habits he just embraces and doesn't try to push me to do 'normal' stuff and be 'normal'.
Regarding the journals, your husband's writing of 'every thought in his head with analysis of subjects, emotions regarding relationships, and random stories' sums up the way my journal is, past and present, although the intensity of my analysis seems to have increased as I have got older, worryingly bordering on obsession with my own thoughts, ideas, emotions, memories and certain people, which can end up feeling uncomfortable and OCD-like, so I probably need to try to reduce the analysis but I find it hard to stop the thoughts and tangents cascading onto the page.
16 Feb 2014, 11:22 am
I think our communication difficulties are not so much a result of deeper thinking, necessarily, but more a result of our tendency to say what we mean, nothing more or less, unlike NTs why, by and large, imply and hide meaning in their words and instinctually expect and assume that others are doing the same.
Couple that with our tendency towards literal interpretations of others' spech and lack of instinctual knowledge and picking up of social rules and cues, and you've got a recipie for disaster.
Fortunately, many of us are able to learn many of these social rules and conventions and develop complex script-trees to fit most situations so we can seem to carry on 'normal' conversations rather well.
Unfortunately, we'll never really be able to communicate with NTs as effectively or on the same social level as they do with each other.
I'm ok with that, though.
16 Feb 2014, 12:29 pm
Bodyles wrote:
I think our communication difficulties are not so much a result of deeper thinking, necessarily, but more a result of our tendency to say what we mean, nothing more or less, unlike NTs why, by and large, imply and hide meaning in their words and instinctually expect and assume that others are doing the same.
Couple that with our tendency towards literal interpretations of others' spech and lack of instinctual knowledge and picking up of social rules and cues, and you've got a recipie for disaster.
Fortunately, many of us are able to learn many of these social rules and conventions and develop complex script-trees to fit most situations so we can seem to carry on 'normal' conversations rather well.
Unfortunately, we'll never really be able to communicate with NTs as effectively or on the same social level as they do with each other.
I'm ok with that, though.
Couple that with our tendency towards literal interpretations of others' spech and lack of instinctual knowledge and picking up of social rules and cues, and you've got a recipie for disaster.
Fortunately, many of us are able to learn many of these social rules and conventions and develop complex script-trees to fit most situations so we can seem to carry on 'normal' conversations rather well.
Unfortunately, we'll never really be able to communicate with NTs as effectively or on the same social level as they do with each other.
I'm ok with that, though.
Ah yes, as cavernio pointed out, I did mix up two different things; I see now that seeing lots of different interpretations indeed isn't necessarily deeper thinking. Your explanation is helpful, however getting away from the example of social interaction, or regardless of whether you are socially interacting - I wonder whether aspies have a deeper level of analysis in their thought processes or whether this is just, as someone mentioned above - a 'different' way of analysing things or seeing things, rather than a deeper way?
17 Feb 2014, 12:40 pm
I think the difference is the conscious vs unconscious mind. If it's automatic, does that mean it's less deep? Quite possibly, for if it's not in one's conscious mind, then is one actually thinking it, or are they just following a predetermined script?
_________________
Not autistic, I think
Prone to depression
Have celiac disease
Poor motivation
17 Feb 2014, 2:38 pm
I think I am not good at analyzing. I am too overwhelmed to analyze properly and analyzing overwhelms me even more.
This is why I feel like I don't belong here. People here write long, detailed posts that analyze situations deeply. I can't do that. If I read people's posts here and my s***ty posts I just feel really stupid compared to people here.
17 Feb 2014, 8:46 pm
Verdandi wrote:
Do Aspies operate at a much deeper level? Nope. Aspies seem to operate on much the same levels as everyone else. The approach is different, but many of the views and conclusions are the same.
Aspies are also no more logical than anyone else, and I think many confuse "being unemotional" with "being logical" or "being rational" when this is simply not the case. Vulcans are fictional TV characters, not a real world culture.
Autistic people do seem to have cognitive tendencies that differ from NTs, as well as cognitive differences that can be profoundly different from NTs, but it's not like being autistic is completely separate from all other humans.
Aspies are also no more logical than anyone else, and I think many confuse "being unemotional" with "being logical" or "being rational" when this is simply not the case. Vulcans are fictional TV characters, not a real world culture.
Autistic people do seem to have cognitive tendencies that differ from NTs, as well as cognitive differences that can be profoundly different from NTs, but it's not like being autistic is completely separate from all other humans.
I think the above reflection is true. Often we Aspies forget that there are NTs with eidetic memories, NTs with filmographic thinking capabilities, NTs who are fantastic with numbers, scientific analysis, and so on.
The evident diversity of intellective processing between NTs and Aspies ought not yield a value judgment. Lest we forget, there is no evidence to make us suspect that Shakespeare, Bach, or Monet were on the spectrum, yet who could deny their depth of penetration into the human soul and the pulse of reality?
17 Feb 2014, 9:36 pm
JSBACHlover wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Do Aspies operate at a much deeper level? Nope. Aspies seem to operate on much the same levels as everyone else. The approach is different, but many of the views and conclusions are the same.
Aspies are also no more logical than anyone else, and I think many confuse "being unemotional" with "being logical" or "being rational" when this is simply not the case. Vulcans are fictional TV characters, not a real world culture.
Autistic people do seem to have cognitive tendencies that differ from NTs, as well as cognitive differences that can be profoundly different from NTs, but it's not like being autistic is completely separate from all other humans.
Aspies are also no more logical than anyone else, and I think many confuse "being unemotional" with "being logical" or "being rational" when this is simply not the case. Vulcans are fictional TV characters, not a real world culture.
Autistic people do seem to have cognitive tendencies that differ from NTs, as well as cognitive differences that can be profoundly different from NTs, but it's not like being autistic is completely separate from all other humans.
I think the above reflection is true. Often we Aspies forget that there are NTs with eidetic memories, NTs with filmographic thinking capabilities, NTs who are fantastic with numbers, scientific analysis, and so on.
The evident diversity of intellective processing between NTs and Aspies ought not yield a value judgment. Lest we forget, there is no evidence to make us suspect that Shakespeare, Bach, or Monet were on the spectrum, yet who could deny their depth of penetration into the human soul and the pulse of reality?
I think some autistic people will be regarded as more logical than NT people. The reason I believe is because of how an autistic brain perceives information in detail, and stores the information in detail.
I believe that the stored information is stored in an "ordered/logical expectancy patterns", and upon a future equivalent event, then the autistic person can recall that "ordered/logical expectancy pattern" and compare and contrast the stored pattern to the present event. This gives the appearance of logic.
A simple example is when I go to Subway, and about 95% of the time they ask me if I want cheese, before asking me if I want my bread toasted. When they don't follow that order, then I point it out to them, and they chuckle, and say something like, "I changed it around for you , huh".
I could go Mr. Spock on them, and say, "It is highly illogical to ask me if I want my bread toasted before asking me if I want cheese, as I may want my cheese toasted".
It is apparent logic, as a by-product of expected order.
17 Feb 2014, 10:33 pm
You could be right about detailed memory retrieval.
But back to the phrase "deeper analysis"; are we even agreed on its meaning? Does analysis emphasize the ability to break a whole into its proper parts, or to synthesize parts into the most appropriate whole, or both? It is quite clear from his writings and biography that Aristotle did not have autism, yet I can't think of a greater analytic mind than Aristotle.
18 Feb 2014, 10:19 am
Gizalba wrote:
Bodyles wrote:
I think our communication difficulties are not so much a result of deeper thinking, necessarily, but more a result of our tendency to say what we mean, nothing more or less, unlike NTs why, by and large, imply and hide meaning in their words and instinctually expect and assume that others are doing the same.
Couple that with our tendency towards literal interpretations of others' spech and lack of instinctual knowledge and picking up of social rules and cues, and you've got a recipie for disaster.
Fortunately, many of us are able to learn many of these social rules and conventions and develop complex script-trees to fit most situations so we can seem to carry on 'normal' conversations rather well.
Unfortunately, we'll never really be able to communicate with NTs as effectively or on the same social level as they do with each other.
I'm ok with that, though.
Couple that with our tendency towards literal interpretations of others' spech and lack of instinctual knowledge and picking up of social rules and cues, and you've got a recipie for disaster.
Fortunately, many of us are able to learn many of these social rules and conventions and develop complex script-trees to fit most situations so we can seem to carry on 'normal' conversations rather well.
Unfortunately, we'll never really be able to communicate with NTs as effectively or on the same social level as they do with each other.
I'm ok with that, though.
Ah yes, as cavernio pointed out, I did mix up two different things; I see now that seeing lots of different interpretations indeed isn't necessarily deeper thinking. Your explanation is helpful, however getting away from the example of social interaction, or regardless of whether you are socially interacting - I wonder whether aspies have a deeper level of analysis in their thought processes or whether this is just, as someone mentioned above - a 'different' way of analysing things or seeing things, rather than a deeper way?
Not necessarily, no.
Of course, it all depends on your definition of 'deep', I suppose.
We ceratinly have a tendency to loop things over&over&over, and sometimes that can lead to insights that others might not notice.
Is that 'deep', though?
I really don't think so.
I don't really think there is anything 'deep'.
I spent two thirds of my life looking for deepness.
First in math, then in science, then in phiolosohpy, and finally in the meeting of science, math, and philosophy.
I found structure, I found understanding, I even found what I believe to be the keys to understanding and manipulating reality at its most basic level.
I never found anything I would describe as 'deep' though.
Go figure.
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