Aspergers with narcissistic personality disorder?

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Without going into a long story about it, does anyone know if it is possible to have Asperger's and narcissistic personality disorder together? Doesn't make much sense to me but I am not a professional. I would love your answers on this!

I don't see why not, although it is not likely the case. There is probably something going on there, but I'd be hesitant to say it's both asperger and npd...

Some of the "symptoms" of each "disorder" can be indistinguishable from each other. If you can get to the source, the cause, of the symptoms you will able to more accurately assess the issue.

Yes, well to be a bit more specific, my niece's therapist told her that perhaps my mother and sister have Aspergers and NPD.
I am 99.9% sure that they don't have Asperger's and what stops me from being 100% sure is that I am not a specialist or a professional in autism.
My son and my nephew are Asperger's and possibly my nephew's dad.
There is a possibility of NPD in my mom and sister, but I don't know.
I don't like this arm-chair diagnosing, but when my niece said this, it threw up red flags. I can't imagine a therapist stating this, and especially without having met either person, and to put the two diagnosis together seems like really a stretch.
So, not being knowledgeable about it, I thought I would throw it out here.
My concern is that the therapist is incompetent.

Arm-chair diagnosing is certainly not a good thing.

My father might be a Semi-Aspie, and I suspect he has NPD, at least to a small degree. Armed with new knowledge about NPD I've had a conversation with him, asking some key questions to decide upon whether he has it or not, and in the end, I was happy I could get away with it without causing damage to him... Not at all an easy task. Now I realize how delicate a psych must be toward his patients.

The issue I have in providing more relevant information is this; You heard from your niece that her therapist said to her that her discription of her interactions with your mother and sister indicated that they have a disorder, or rather, combination of disorders is far too long a stretch of conjecture.

Too many links in this chain. She could have discribed only certain traights or potentially misinformed/exagerated interaction, etc. He could have misunderstood her accounts. She could have misunderstood his "diagnosis". She could have repeated this to you incorrectly, poorly, or falsely. You could have misunderstood her. You could be misrepresenting information here....and lastly I (we) could misunderstand you here.

What is important though, is that no therapist worth talking with will ever make a diagnosis from another person's account of someone. Especially a patient's. And to make one such as NPD and Aspergers together is an anomaly anyway. Like I mentioned on my earlier post, there are many similar looking behaviors between the two disorders, and someone with the one can be confused with having the other under casual (or uninformed)observation.

If I were to assume I know what I'm talking about, I would suggest that a likely scenario is; Her therapist suggested that your mother and sister, based on your niece's accounts of them, have behavioral patterns and traits that would suggest they could have either asperger or npd, but that (s)he couldn't be sure without further investigation. Anything beyond that would be irresponsible (imo).

I suspect it's possible.

I actually was diagnosed with NPD. (along with several other things that are unrelated...) It was vetoed though so it's not my DX... I think the lack of social reciprocity gives the appearance of aloofness and increases the chance of a misdiagnosis of NPD.

I was curious about NPD too so I actually took a test for it and scored lower than average for it---so it said I did not have NPD. I had also asked my therapist about NPD, and he said I did not have it. So...if you wonder about the possibility of having NPD you could always talk to a professional about it who knows you (if you have such a person to work with).

IMO---I believe a person could have both AS and NPD, but it might be rare.

I know someone who does seem to cross over these two diagnoses.

He is obsessed with music and football: he monolgues at people about the subjects. He will pin people down and talk about his problems - "talking at" people, as I have heard others call it. He has the classic monotone voice. He calls people "friends" who he barely knows. His eye contact is odd and wincing - like he doesn't like it but forces himself to do it. He is hyper-sensitive to room temperature and to light levels. Last time he had a girlfriend, she said he used to ignore her to spend time on the internet when she came to his flat.

The word most people use to describle him is "arrogant." He has little empathy for others. He has episodes where he rages at people over nothing. He does not apologise unless someone in authority forces him to. We were friends but he ended the friendship at the speed of light when we had a row, and for a year and a half has not spoken to me - is silent and very hostile. He was forced to apologise to me over one incident of obscene abuse, and wrote me an "apology" which was aggressive and irrational - ie, "I'm sorry I've been hard to be around but I just found out that 20 years ago you upset a friend of mine. I am trying to put that in the past.". Seeking to blame me for his own behaviour. (I can tell you I did not stand for that.)

So he seems to have the classic Aspie obsessions and awkwardnesses, combined with the NPD use and abuse of others to boost his ego, with zero concern for the harm he does.

Oh please, my dad's the Narcissistic one.

We have the talent for fantasy, and when we have a brutal childhood sometimes it is better than what life has to offer. If you are an aspie that has not had a brutal childhood, then congrats.

Yes, especially in high functioning autistics who are somewhat adapted to society. For instance, grandiosity is one way to compensate for internal emotional discomfort.

Why does it not maske much sense to you?

Actually, some of the definitions on the internet are kind of extreme. It can present in ways that are somewhat more subtle. Here is a more tempered definition from the Mayo Clinic website:

Definition
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This is not a happy thought, but generally speaking,in my opinion, a narcissistic parent will result in a narcissistic child, as the child is cut off from real inner contact with the parent, because he is never really seen, and this is very painful..The key to undoing the conundrum of narcissism is probably in listening---if a person is a narcissist himself, and has identified this problem (which most won't, as they would have to look in the glass at a different angle in order to see it, and why do that, as their narcissism is serving a protective function), then listening to others, deeply listening is the remedy. If a person knows someone else is a narcissistic, then listening to that person and setting up some kind of conditions by ones responses that can help him make a bridge is the solution. (I am not sure if active listening alone is enough, though it could be a big help).The person needs to be given the possibility of finding a different kind of shape so he can step outside of himself without the terror of losing himself, so he needs to be given a possibility to represent himself to himself in a new way...Narcissism is a sad thing. Once a person's personality is formed, meaning really crystallized, there is very little possibility to undue it,

The hopeful thing is that almost all people have the altruistic motivation, so with a child I would attempt to do activities that amplify this tendency toward altruism, such as set up situations where the child can help you or other people and/or animals and experience their gratitude... How bad can that be to anyone? But it can only be gratifying if you engage the child's interest so that he does not feel forced.

It seems to me that the assertion that "narcissistic parent means a narcissistic child" is not one based on empirical data, but more likely based on flimsy assumptions such as "victims of abuse often turn out to be abusive themselves" which is also not true.

Children with narcissistic parents are likely to have experienced emotional abuse and extensive trauma due to their parent's behavior. Children in this situation often end up resenting their parents and in many ways become "people pleasers" because of their efforts to earn their parent's approval.

This book discusses what it's like for the children: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3756 ... the_Mirror

Also, I wouldn't advise anyone to try to fix a narcissist. It's going to be a severely uphill battle just getting said person to acknowledge their behavior, let alone admitting that there's anything wrong with such behavior. I mean, one can spend all day pointing out their bullying, manipulative, passive-aggressive behavior but at best they'll just play the victim.

Usually the best one can hope for is to point out the behavior so that others are forewarned.

Verdandi, it sounds to me like you just read this stuff in your message above somewhere and are kind of mechanically repeating.

Actually people pleasing is a form of narcissism. In any case, imo, these patterns of narcissism tend to repeat themselves as the child feels cut off and that is very painful and he will compensate by repeating the pattern which is being modeled, though the form in which he compensates may on the surface appear to be quite different, the underlying dynamic is much the same.

Some of your comments are off the wall to me. I wonder if you are thinking things through..

This sounds to me not at all well thought out. The victims of abuse often do turn out to be abusers themselves (though not always). Look at it this way to get a hands on understanding: The statement "the victims of abuse rarely turn out to be abusers themselves" somehow does not sound right, does it?.


Sounds to me as if you are a victim of some kind of abuse, which many of us here and even most people are in some way, and are trying to get someone to listen to you about that...This makes sense. You also sound very angry, and that is okay, but anger can make people sick.. A suggestion to anyone who is experiencing anger is to simply feel it. It IS possible to feel anger and transform this anger in such a way as to have even more energy to fight injustice. But if a person is fueled by anger, there can be an illusion of great doing when actually the person is caught in a vicious circle and leaking energy..

I think it would be better for each person to observe his own behavior and to focus from that angle while listening to other people. This does not mean to accept injustice or not set boundaries. Also, I don't think analyzing other people is that helpful, which is why I responded to this question---to try to present the possibility of an approach which is interdependent, so listening. It is not a matter of trying to fix a narcissist but of listening to a narcissist or anyone, and also observing oneself at the same time. This does require attention, and I think it takes practice to develop this kind of interactive attention so as not to merely react.

Actually I just now after writing this realized that this is an old thread and that someone just revived it by making one comment.

Macchendra wrote:

Macchendra, I love this comment. It is beautiful.

I had a tough time growing up, my mother and sister had violent tempers and I kind of grew up in a more or less traumatized state. Unfortunately I had a high IQ and my aspie obsessive interest was history. Growing up I had a habit of kind of forcing my obsessive interests on friends in order to kind of fulfill my need for a feeling of control. I had General Anxiety disorder so my compulsion was more or less practicing out speeches and conversations along with f*****g around with knives in my room.

Growing up I kind of had a rivalry with a cousin of mine (in the family we were known to act almost identically) and he was diagnosed after his first suicide attempt. When he was diagnosed I researched all the symptoms and one by one kind of obsessively focused on fixing each one; the clumsiness is the one I've had the hardest time with. I started in High school obsessively studying social skills, non-verbals, etc... by practicing in the mirror for hours and with my peers because I wanted to learn how to better manipulate and control people originally with the purpose of trying to use them in order to successfully accomplish my life-goal of making a difference in the "numbers".

I used to spend hours in the mirror studying my facial expressions. I got PTSD about a year ago from a anti-histamine OD which caused a hellish nightmare trip. Last time I saw a therapist she said I definitely was NPD. I kind of have the self-obssessed masochistic suicidal martyr form of NPD so luckily I don't do anywhere near as much harm to anyone else as much as myself. Still have extreme gynophobia and erotophobia along with blood thirst and violent sado-masochistic tendencies which I try not to indulge unless I'm in violent situations. I don't have quite have Aspie meltdowns anymore and the last time I kind of had an emotional flare up was middle school and I was ridiculed for it.

I actually have pretty good social skills in person and people typically find me to be kind of charismatic in person. I'm not too bad with women until they touch me even casually and I kind of start shivering and kind of go into fight or flight mode.

Aspergers syndrome kind isolates often isolates children in childhood which only makes it much easier for them to develop into personality disorders so more or less at this junction in my life I'm kind of trying to re-evaluate my perspective and goals on life from analyzing ethical and situational perspectives in order to find commonalities in order to create a conscience or personal morality which upholds the values that I see as eternal truth while using both cold empathy and warm empathy (which is more new to me) ; hopefully cleanse myself of phobias and in the process and realign obsessive interests and compulsions to help me get what I want out of life and hopefully make a positive difference in the world along the way.