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ouroborosUK
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26 Jan 2014, 1:22 pm

I don't understand the emotion of pride in most cases.

I understand it when someone personally achieves something really outstanding considering his skills, his environment and the challenge. If you win the gold medal at the Olympics, risk your health to save someone's life, pass a very difficult exam by skill, work and dedication, or manage to write and publish a book that becomes a bestseller I understand you have a good reason to have a good opinion of yourself and act overtly happy about that, which would be my definition of pride.

NT people, however, are often proud of things like their parents, their local sports team, their country, their intelligence or their beauty, etc. and I don't understand that. If the local football team won the championship it is certainly not thanks to them but to the sportsmen. Their parents' success, wealth, or personal qualities are, in almost any case, not due to them (the reverse is more true, I can understand someone being proud of his children since he/she supported them and had an important role in their education). Intelligence and beauty can be cultivated but are for an important part caused by genetics and the social environment which are things you are not responsible for.

You can be happy of being intelligent, beautiful, of having good parents. You can be happy of the culture of your country and/or the policy of your government if you find they are aligned with your personal opinions (or at least respectful of them). I suppose you can even be happy of having a skilled local sports team, if you like that sport. But how the hell can you ever be proud of all that ? It is like some kind of plagiarism, attributing to yourself something you have no hand in.

In the same idea, I don’t understand why people seem to take things like titles, decorations, diplomas, etc. as face value. For example, I studied in a top university in my home country and have a nice diploma but I’m not particularly proud of that. I feel that I have no special merit for that since my parents have a good education themselves, supported me intellectually and financially, and I just happened to be quite well adapted to the higher education system of my country. What I achieved was just what anybody with my abilities could have achieved in my situation, I didn’t really go out of my way for it.

It is the same for people who are proud of being rich. If your family was poor and you are a self made man I can understand it, but if you just inherited your parents’ wealth and social position it seems like the stupidest thing ever.

I am not trying to be an idealist ; I know that many people are unfair, unkind or egoistical. I could understand (if not approve) people saying “I’m rich, intelligent and beautiful, you’re not, that’s not fair, but I don’t care so go f*ck yourself”. But how can you fool yourself to the point of thinking you actually “deserve” those things and should be proud of them while you visibly did nothing to get them ?


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Fogpatrol
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26 Jan 2014, 1:36 pm

Can pride just be being happy of a result? I never really thought of it being something else than this.



bumble
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26 Jan 2014, 1:38 pm

The type of pride you talk about is ego based.

The human race is driven by its own ego. Its the cause of most of the problems in the world.



ouroborosUK
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26 Jan 2014, 1:42 pm

Fogpatrol wrote:
Can pride just be being happy of a result? I never really thought of it being something else than this.


I kind of agree with you, but that's not how most people use the word.

To speak of more positive situations than my original post, think of a child who did something great and his mother or father tell him "I am so proud of you". The child has a reason to be proud. The parents have a reason to be happy, to congratulate their child, maybe to reward him in some ways, etc. but not to be "proud" of him. They can be proud of having raised a child who can achieve such great things, but that's not the same thing. I don't understand how you can be proud of someone else than yourself.


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ouroborosUK
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26 Jan 2014, 1:49 pm

bumble wrote:
The type of pride you talk about is ego based..


Yes, agreed. But precisely, what's the link between your ego and the performance of the local football team ? (Even if you like football.) I can understand people want to "boost" their ego, what I don't understand is how that kind of things help them do so.


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bumble
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26 Jan 2014, 1:51 pm

ouroborosUK wrote:
bumble wrote:
The type of pride you talk about is ego based..


Yes, agreed. But precisely, what's the link between your ego and the performance of the local football team ? (Even if you like football.) I can understand people want to "boost" their ego, what I don't understand is how that kind of things help them do so.


I have absolutely no idea and find myself as curious as you. I personally don't follow any sports teams.



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26 Jan 2014, 1:51 pm

Like Bumble is saying it's an ego boost. Alot of people are driven by their ego and being proud of it's own child is basically a way to give yourself a "ego boost". "MY child as acheive this I'm proud of MY child."

As for being proud of local sport team, My guess is that they have a sense of belonging.



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26 Jan 2014, 1:57 pm

ouroborosUK wrote:
it.

It is the same for people who are proud of being rich. If your family was poor and you are a self made man I can understand it, but if you just inherited your parents’ wealth and social position it seems like the stupidest thing ever.

“I’m rich, intelligent and beautiful, you’re not, that’s not fair, but I don’t care so go f*ck yourself”.

That is not pride. It is just being nasty.


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26 Jan 2014, 2:03 pm

ouroborosUK wrote:
If the local football team won the championship it is certainly not thanks to them but to the sportsmen.

And who allows the team to be successful? Who sticks around longer, the players or the fans? Who has put money in the bucket being passed around to prevent bankruptcy?
Their parents' success, wealth, or personal qualities are, in almost any case, not due to them (the reverse is more true, I can understand someone being proud of his children since he/she supported them and had an important role in their education). Intelligence and beauty can be cultivated but are for an important part caused by genetics and the social environment which are things you are not responsible for.


Quote:
In the same idea, I don’t understand why people seem to take things like titles, decorations, diplomas, etc. as face value. For example, I studied in a top university in my home country and have a nice diploma but I’m not particularly proud of that. I feel that I have no special merit for that since my parents have a good education themselves, supported me intellectually and financially, and I just happened to be quite well adapted to the higher education system of my country. What I achieved was just what anybody with my abilities could have achieved in my situation, I didn’t really go out of my way for it.

You had to work for your abilities, and when you were in college/university you had to work to ensure you got your diploma.



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26 Jan 2014, 2:13 pm

If you consider yourself part of a larger entity or group, than you can legitimately feel pride in that group. A family, workplace, club, nation etc... are all groups that accomplish things without your help, yet you can feel pride in those things because you are associated with them. Even if your favorite sports team wins the championship, which you clearly had no input in, you feel like you are part of the body of the team in some way by being a fan. Maybe it is just a matter of being on the winning side, but it's not entirely irrational when you consider the attachments people make to each other and to things.

So the real question is, do what extent do you consider yourself part of a larger whole?


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26 Jan 2014, 2:17 pm

I think I'm learning what it means to be part of a group, because now I think a lot about what life is like for other autistics. Sometimes I feel like I have millions of siblings, connected by similar experiences. I think part of what "autism pride" means for me is probably that connection to others and their accomplishments. We are just barely starting to think of ourselves as a group--a group that will always remain very diverse.


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26 Jan 2014, 2:54 pm

There is a difference between PRIDE and VANITY.


ouroborosUK wrote:
They can be proud of having raised a child who can achieve such great things, but that's not the same thing.


I beg to differ, having a child myself, it is exactly the same thing. I am very proud of her accomplishments, because while they are HER accomplishments, they very much reflect on the education, values system and support she received growing up from both myself and her grandparents.

The fact that she didn't grow up to become a Lindsay Lohan style hot mess is directly attributable to her upbringing and I do take much personal pride in that. :D



bumble
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26 Jan 2014, 3:03 pm

Willard wrote:
There is a difference between PRIDE and VANITY.


ouroborosUK wrote:
They can be proud of having raised a child who can achieve such great things, but that's not the same thing.


I beg to differ, having a child myself, it is exactly the same thing. I am very proud of her accomplishments, because while they are HER accomplishments, they very much reflect on the education, values system and support she received growing up from both myself and her grandparents.

The fact that she didn't grow up to become a Lindsay Lohan style hot mess is directly attributable to her upbringing and I do take much personal pride in that. :D


Why is lynsay lohan a mess? I don't read celebrity magazines and I only know of her via google and a few films I have seen but didnt realise she starred in until I just checked.



ouroborosUK
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26 Jan 2014, 3:28 pm

Willard wrote:
There is a difference between PRIDE and VANITY.


You have a good point, thanks. I think the things that are related to oneself but for which one is mostly not responsible for (like beauty, etc.) are indeed more vanity than pride. The rest must be just typical ambiguity and bad word use to rephrase something seen as socially bad (vanity) as a mostly good good thing (pride).
It still doesn't explain the things not related to oneself like the sports team, but it is still something.

Willard wrote:
I beg to differ, having a child myself, it is exactly the same thing. I am very proud of her accomplishments, because while they are HER accomplishments, they very much reflect on the education, values system and support she received growing up from both myself and her grandparents.

The fact that she didn't grow up to become a Lindsay Lohan style hot mess is directly attributable to her upbringing and I do take much personal pride in that. :D


I can understand that feeling indeed :) But what are you "proud" of ? Her, or you for giving her that education which helped her have a better life ?

I realize this is a tricky question. When you create a family, you put your ethos, values and intent into it. Hell, I suppose this is the very reason for creating a family. If you don't think you can raise a child in a "good" way, whatever your definition of "good", and create a healthy family structure there is no point in having children. On the other hand, as you say her achievements are hers, so she is the one who can be proud of them.

I suppose we can say family is some kind of collective work. Both you and your child (and probably some other people and factors) have a hand in it, so all of you can have some legitimacy for being proud of the result. Seeing things that way look a bit naive and idealistic but it is probably fairer and closer to the egalitarian relationships we strive to achieve in families and social structures in general.

Anyway, congratulations for being a father. I hope I can be one too one day, but it looks like hell of a job :)


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26 Jan 2014, 3:48 pm

Vicarious experience or pride for what they've helped to - not solely - cultivated, not plagiarism.