AS people = Beta males/females?

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I think Janissy answered the question, but now I see what you were getting at. Even if you do not believe a thing, it is hard to separate from the larger culture you've been immersed in.

I realize I have not accepted how bad it in fact is for one's survival ability to have the personality one has when one has Aspergers Syndrome. Not because one is stupid, but because everyone else are so different from oneself that it becomes a very severe disability.

Fully accepting this would mean giving in to NT-society and not respecting my true self. Because my true self does not judge people on their ability to survive, but their ability to treat others well. All this judgement of people's ability to survive is something that is and has been forced upon me because I am being forced to socialize the neurotypical way in order to survive (keep a job for instance).

I see that is why I struggle to accept how much of a disability Aspergers Syndrome is, and how LOW-ranking the condition makes you, despite your intelligence. Accepting it would be handing my former bullies all self-respect I have left, and acknowledge that their hurtful actions were justified because I was low-ranked enough for them to be allowed to bully me. That, I cannot do.

But the problems surfaces everytime I get too involved with the NT world, that means in jobs and in dating. That is truly an issue.

qawer, I'm really worried that this could affect your mental health in a negative way, and might ruin some potentially great relationships. You need to stop fixating on your current worldview. You probably need to spend some time socialising with NTs who aren't jerks.

There is no one "neurotypical way of socialising", and certainly most people do not view the world you imply that they do (that trampling on "the low ranked" is justified).

So something I've learned is that the ability to treat others well also contributes to one's ability to survive in a community.

I am sorry if that seems to be cherry picking, but I wanted to mention that, at least. I've seen interpersonal support develop along these lines many times and it does work.

Thank you for your concern, The_Walrus.

Indeed, this world view is very problematic to hold.

The problem is that I am too convinced about it to be able to just let it go. I know for a fact that you are right about what you say that most people do not view the world I implied, but it seems to me that people who do not view the world the way I implied, do not do it because they got some problems themselves (i.e. you are eventually supposed to "look down upon" the weak. Trampling could be too tough a word, but one "should" always put the group before the individual, it seems - everything for the group).

Always the group before the individual, this is a dog's world

Hi Verdandi.

I do not doubt you are right that the ability to treat others well contributes to one's ability to survive in a community. That would for instance work well if you wanted to have me do you a favour.

But when you genuinely treat people well (just for liking them, not because you want to gain something), I find it will be heavily punished. Because this means you hold the individual over the group, and that is a "no-no".

Being "cat" (having AS) in a "dog"'s world (NT world) is heavily punished by the "dogs". Since it eventually amounts to survival of the fittest being a "dog" is therefore the right thing to be. Treating others well should from their perspective never be done all genuinely, because that would mean putting the individual before the group. In the end an individual is nothing in himself, he is only what he can bring to the group. Being low-ranking means not being able to contribute with much to the group, so that person is worth less than a higher-ranking individual. It's just terrible.

I just watched this yesterday lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQgU8I7PgT0

I like his view.

Great vid, he is speaking the truth.

But he misses an important point, imo. Aspies are only capable of being the "strong individual who just do not want to talk to people, not a beta" if he can be truly independent, i.e. not forced to socialize to survive.

But in todays society that is just not the case. You have to conform if you want to earn money and if you do not want your social assets (perhaps good looks, perhaps intelligence, perhaps special skills etc.) to deteriorate on the dating scene.

So aspies are, per se, strong individuals, in fact stronger than the alphas, seeing that aspies are tough enough to deal with life without a group to support them. But the current environment does not allow such behaviour, which eventually forces the aspie to become the gamma in the NT group.

(Unless be betrays his own nature and acts NT the way many of us try to, in order to not attain the gamma position - I find doing this for too long can be mentally damaging).

Alphas and betas aside for a moment, it helps me to think of society in terms that help us understand social behaviors among other species.

I consider relationships to be a form of social cooperative behavior, defined as an organism's tendency to do something that benefits another to some (varying degree of) cost to themselves. In a general sense, interpersonal interactions can be considered cooperative or not. Two major ways these seemingly detrimental behaviors can evolve due to selection in a species are: 1. kinship, and 2. reciprocal altruism. Number 1 explains why your parents, aunts, uncles, sisters, brothers give you a lot of support no matter how demanding you were a kid (because you pass on their genes essentially). However number 2 is basically a tit-for-tat situation. If you give person "A" you just met a slice of your pizza one day at work, then later that week person A will offer you some m&ms. If that doesn't happen, say, if person A instead continues to take pizza from you but never shares any food or even polite conversation with you, then you would be understandably upset, and probably will want to giver some kind of punishment, such as not ask this person to hang out in the future, or demanding to be reimbursed for the lunches they've been mooching etc.

Even among wild wolf packs these things are true. It's been shown in African wild dogs that when you see an alpha treating a beta in a way that is not in any way mutually beneficial to the beta, the beta is essentially "only putting up with it" because they are typically a close relative (Girman et al., 1997).

So basically, I doubt even dogs would put up with unrelated folks being jerks.

There are cooperative people out there and there are cheaters who want to play the system to their own individual benefit (there always will be). Don't let those people get you down, because they get everyone down, NT, AS, you name it. People on the spectrum may not be the most smooth, but we can follow the rules of social cooperation the same as anyone else, perhaps better, since it may be easier for folks like us to objectively examine the situation, where as so many NTs I know are stumbling blindly based on following gut instincts.

As Verdandi suggested, just make sure you treat each other with the same kindness, and you can make relationships with people that treat you as an equal.


Hope that helps.

Oh, believe me, over-simplifying complex issues tends to be a pet-peeve of mine, especially human behavior.

I believe in freeing peeves from captivity, so that they can roam freely across the open plains.

Sorry guys. I feel like it's been months since I actually had anything resembling a conversation with anyone on these forums. Usually I just say things and people ignore them and I go do something else. =_= ...then part of me wonders if anyone responded to what I said while I was doing something else, so I go back and I check... and I realize that no one did.

And that's today's episode of smoooooth forum posting for the win. oh yeah. deep thoughts.

ok, I'll go back to being on topic now.

I'm treated as an alpha male and see you the same as anyone. Really, having an understanding of psychology as I do, I could easily say aspergers doesn't even exist. Your problems are the same as of those who should be normal. You totally behave the same way.

Autistic people can date angels so that makes us alpha males.

There's no such thing as alphas and betas.

I consider this perhaps the most well thought out response to the original post. You can form alliances with people by doing favors, giving them compliments, giving them attention, taking their side in conflicts, etc. It is about reciprocity. The socially-astute person will form a strategy of gaining as many allies as possible.

There are also certain things that create ill-will. If you arrogantly dismiss someone's beliefs, their contributions, their emotions, what they view as important, you will create enemies. If you fail to acknowledge someone (not being friendly) you create ill-will. If you fail to back someone up in a conflict, you create ill-will. If you reject group membership or fail to follow the customs of the group, you create ill-will.

Basically, your behaviors determine how well people like you and how willing they are to look past your idiosyncrasies. The truth is that everyone has failings, whether they are NT, aspie, or something else. Tolerance is given as long as you avoid certain social booby traps and make the effort to maintain good relations with others.

I do not believe that there is a fixed assignment for an individual. Your rank varies depending on the group and the rules the group follows for conferring rank. For example, you can be a low-ranking sibling, have a high rank at your work, and not really have a fixed rank with your friends. In society, we are so anonymous that I find it hard to use a ranking system. Nobody cares about you in society except your family, close friends, and people you interact with on a daily basis (like at work).

So my answer to the question is no. Your rank does not depend upon your diagnosis of AS. It depends on the composition of the group. I am high ranking in a lot of groups, and I hate it. In other areas of my life, I am low ranking (unemployed, poor, live with parents, young, ethnic minority, etc.). For pure survival I play the game of alliance-building and politics because I hate being alienated for bucking the system. In my private life though, I prefer to be alone and to be left alone.

I find nothing wrong with being a "beta". In fact, I prefer it. I've been put on a pedestal all my life for being so smart academically. That's too much pressure. It's also very alienating. And it invites jealousy. Beta's get taken care of because people have compassion. Also, there are a hell of a lot more betas than alphas, so we take care of each other, knowing that alone we are weak, but with friends we can make it. Embrace being a beta.

Also remember a key facet of evolutionary theory is diversity. For every trait (including preferences in a partner), there exists a wide variety. This diversity means that there is somebody out there who wants what you have. Try to find the people who like what you have and also have what you like.

Last edited by em_tsuj on 15 Mar 2014, 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yes.
Oversimplification of the issues that are probably being crudely indicated by these terms is not helpful in any way.