Theory of mind?

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Can someone give me a nutshell for dummies definition of what theory of mind means?
Thanks.

That you are able to see something from another person's point of view.
Understanding that you have knowledge, beliefs, experiences and views etc and that other people do too, and that their knowledge, views etc differ from yours.

Okay thanks!

I think I have that to a degree. At least with gauging people on internet forums.
But I know I have lack of self awareness issues in real life. Like not just unaware of how I look
or am acting, but unaware of how others are reacting to it or bothered by it.

It is that thing that doesn't make sence, because the people that invented the idea, and people who go along with it, do not understand alot of what other people are thinking that don't understand why they think that way. You could also say it is a misconception of reality gone fairy tail, and turned into a lie or something.

The only thing that makes sence to me out of this misconstrued "theory" is that when you are very young, you believe people think the same way about some things that you do, and it is not true.

Apparently the only way to break youself from thinking that way according to this "theory" is to lie, and know you can get away with it.

Im pritty sure it is a neurotypical idea, because they lie alot.

People need to stop making sence.

I don't think it has to do with lying. I think it has to do with thinking about what someone else is thinking.

So, if you see someone crying, you might use your theory of mind to think, "That person must feel sad. I wonder what happened to make them feel sad? I know that person likes cookies, and if I gave him a cookie, he might feel a little better, so I will give him a cookie." Without theory of mind, you would just think, "That person is crying. People who are crying usually feel sad. I don't want this person to feel sad, so I will give them a cookie because cookies cheer me up."

You see the difference. The theory-of-mind approach involves putting yourself into the other person's situation and seeing the world from their perspective. But notice that the person working without a theory of mind is just as compassionate as the person who is using the theory of mind.

Theory of mind is a shortcut to figuring out what someone else is thinking. Most of the time, autistic people learn theory of mind--we just learn it later, because it means that we have to think about what someone else is thinking, and at the same time still think our own thoughts. It's a difficult thing to juggle both at the same time. The average NT learns theory of mind around age 4.

Having an effective grasp of theory of mind does make you a better liar, but that's not the only thing you can use it for. It also helps you to understand other people's perspectives a little better.

The trouble with theory of mind, for NTs, is that they often use the shortcut of, "This person must be exactly like me." Usually when they are looking at other NTs, that shortcut is mostly correct because they are so much alike. But it means that when they look at someone who is not NT, or who is from a different culture, they start out with some assumptions that are incorrect. Like, an extroverted NT might assume that an autistic person who is being quiet is sad, because the NT would only be quiet when they were sad. They grow so used to using this shortcut that they don't realize they are using it, and they have to slowly correct themselves with each new person who is different from themselves. NTs who are particularly socially skilled can do this more quickly than most. The most charismatic NTs can easily make friends even with people who are very different from themselves.

Last edited by Callista on 04 Mar 2014, 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

geez - sounds like someone created a theory just to talk about - empathy which has already been defined

Yes, I think so. "Theory of mind" is a psychological concept, after all. Psychologists who defined it were probably trying to figure out how people develop empathy.

The strange thing is that "theory of mind" is not just necessary for compassion; it's also necessary to effectively abuse or bully another person. You have to have an idea of what will comfort someone if you want to help them; if you want to hurt them, you have to have an idea of what will make them feel worse.

Empathy means knowing what someone else is feeling.
Compassion means caring about what someone else is feeling.

It's entirely possible to be very compassionate without having empathy. A lot of autistic people are exactly that way. We don't really read people easily, so we don't easily know what they are thinking and feeling, but we do care--and once we know, perhaps because we have asked them in words, we can join them in their happiness, or try to help them feel better when they are feeling bad.

An example of poor Theory of Mind is a cat bringing you a dead mouse as a present. The cat sees it as the highest compliment, and assumes you will love it too. But in reality you think it's horrible!

But it is.

A lack of "theory of mind" means you act on the presumption that others see a situation just as you do. This is an infantile condition that most NTs learn to grow out of as they mature (not that all do...because they are self-centered or selfish). People with AS typically have difficulty seeing things from another person's point of view unless they make a deliberate effort to do so. NTs supposedly learn early on to see things form another person's point of view on a more "automatic" level.

So as you can see it is a theory that only holds factual things in one or two circumstances. Sort of. The rest is a bunch of confusing garble about interpretation, misinterpretation, deception, and lies made to confuse an otherwise logical person.

There is nothing at all in any way whatsoever factual about interpreting what another person or animal is thinking unless you are a master of telepathy, or esp, or something. It is just a guess. You actually need to have someone answer your questions somehow, just to see if you are right. It is a stupid theory based on questioning, guessing, lying, and fairy tales. Sociopaths really like it.

I don't even know if there is an actual practical purpose for such a theory. If you know everything there is to know about ToM, and use it on everyone as practically as you possibly can, you will be wrong alot. It is like trying to give scientific value to chaos.

Soo. Some children can be wrong about something, and pass a polygraph?

It's not stupid; it's what people actually do. They don't need telepathy to figure out what another person is thinking; they can read body language and facial expression, they can think about what the other person has told them in the past, and they can think about how they would react if they were in a similar situation. Yes, it's guesswork, but it can be quite accurate. And autistic people can do it, too.

NTs are different from us because they are so good at it. Instead of having to sit there and figure it out carefully, they get it so intuitively that they often share other people's feelings--they feel sad when they see someone else's sadness, for example. They don't have to be told that the person is sad; nor do they have to figure it out by looking carefully at their face and thinking about the person's recent experiences. They "just know"--because they interpret it subconsciously, kind of the way you see the color red and know it's red without thinking about it. Your brain has done that work for you before you even knew it. For NTs, it's much the same way with reading each others' feelings. It's not telepathy. They are quickly gathering a lot of information and drawing conclusions from it--just like we do, only more quickly and without having to think about it.

Yes, it's guessing--and sometimes they guess wrong--but most of the time, it's accurate enough that they can act on that information quickly. It's necessary, because for NTs, their biggest strength is working in groups. Have you ever watched a group of NT friends doing something together? They can often coordinate their actions without any words at all, or very few words, just by watching each other. When they link up like that, they can get things done that one person alone couldn't do. Long ago, that helped us hunt and find food and protect each other. It still helps us work together today. An autistic person might be able to hyperfocus and do things that no one else can, but NTs are unique in their ability to link up and cooperate almost as though they had temporarily assembled themselves into a single unit.

Four people bring thier cars into a mechanic shop. All four cars are identical, and they all have the exact same problem. One of the owners of one car is a nice rich old lady. Another is an abusive sociopathic prick. The third one is some penney pinching scrooge, and the forth is a narcissistic kid with rich parents. They all get there cars fixed. Same price, and everything. The old lady believes you are the nicest man, and did a wonderful job. The abusive prick thinks there is something wrong with everything, and you have dead bodies in your basement. The penney pincher believes he is getting ripped off. And the narcissistic kid doesn't care. The kid just wants the car back, and the parents to pay, so he can go to Macy's, and find a cool comb to play with hair or something.

That is not theory of mind. That is reality. You can believe whatever you want, and they can all be wrong.

The truth is, the car is broke, I'm just a mechanic, and I fix cars.

Many many times have I seen people believe such a theory is working for them, and they end up making very bad unchangeable mistakes, that do serious damage to other people, and their lives. Possibly even death. I hate ToM.

So how DO you deal with it without upsetting the cat? Because you want to be happy for the fact that he thinks highly enough of you to give you the thing, but at the same time you are sad because you are looking at a dead bird.
Serious question btw, the death toll this year so far and it is only the first week of March is 3. This is the last cat I have. I'll go back to chickens

You can keep your cat indoors. Mine are both indoor-only, and they are quite content. There's just too much traffic to let them out around here.

My Mom thanks her cat. And she means it sincerely. But she also feels bad for the mouse. Both feelings- gratitude to cat* and pity for mouse- co-exist. Then she buries the mouse. I just watch the whole drama play out but her cat will never bring me a mouse because I'm just a visitor.


*When I was a kid she always said "it's the thought that counts" if I complained about recieving a gift that wasn't exactly what I wanted. She is not hypocritical. She's behaving towards the cat the exact way she always insisted I should act when recieving a gift. Thus the gratitude even if the gift of a mouse was not exactly what she wanted.