Fitting in a group is not only unnatural, but uncomfortable

Post Reply New Topic

I realize that fitting into a group (for people with AS) not only is a matter of not being able to, but actually is a matter of being very uncomfortable, going against our own nature.

So imagine you had learned all the social skills needed to fit into a group - you knew all you had to do to become an accepted member of the group.

The problem is, doing what it takes to be accepted is extremely uncomfortable and against our own nature.


The main reason is this: to become accepted in a group you have to display proper dominant and submissive behaviour to respectively lower-ranking and higher-ranking group members. What does this imply? It implies that you are led by some people and lead some others people.

But the basic nature of someone with AS is to not have leaders and not be led - what is natural is to only lead oneself.



Therefore: we can learn all the social skills we want. That is a good thing, it is good to know the recipe for fitting in. But the point it, we will never be comfortable in that position, because we do neither like to follow or lead.

The reason is: as soon as we are not allowed to do as we please, our brain subconsciously tells us that our survival prospects are threatened. This is because aspies fundamentally believe they are on their own (opposite NTs who fundamentally believe the opposite). So when you are on your own, and noone is going to help you, then how can you survive if you are told what to do by others or have to spend time telling others what to do?

This might seem a bit categorical, but believe me, that is what goes on subconsciously all the time.

Wow, I never thought about it that way, but you are right. I don't like to lead OR follow. Thanks for sharing that insight.

From one fundamental aspect you're right, and in my experience Aspies (even myself) seem immensely close minded to anything they did not originate or experience, and will often argue, even with people who are agreeing with them. They seem to have a drive to say "no" first and think of reasons later. They seem to have difficulty with opinions or methods other than their own thoughts and ways.
It is not solely survival to say, "No one's going to help me so I wont listen to what they say."
Failing to learn from someone else getting hit by a bus is not a strong survival trait.

Also, before even that, and much more fundamentally, one can't just say, "fit in a group."
Nobody can fit into just any ole group at random, teleported around the planet somewhere and plopped into some random group without even a "How do you do." No matter what language a person speaks most of the rest of the world speaks something different than it, not being able to speak the language would stop ya cold, just for starters.

In the same way, nobody fits into zero groups altogether, there's always somebodies somewhere reasonably nearby.

Neurotypicals don't drive around town, pull into some random parking lot, walk into a building and just go "fit in" the group in there for kicks. They don't, because they can't.

Everyone that fits into a group for any length of time -whether they know it or not- is because the group fits them!
It's easy enough for people to fit in and feel comfortable with people that are very much like them.
Read any "How to do Sales" book and somewhere in it they say the same thing, it's easy to sell to similar people the tough part is selling to dissimilar people.

For example how well do you think an Aquaphobic cyclist would do if they joined a canoeing club and then started saying, "How about if we go bicycling this weekend, just for a change?"

It's important for those of us on the Autism Spectrum to remember that not everything that doesn't go well for us is because of OUR issues.
It's like someone saying they don't drive because no cars fit them, the pedals are too far or the steering wheel is too close or the mirrors are all angled wrong. Adjust them! Adjust the car to fit you!
In the same way everyone has to adjust their expectations of socializing to fit them.

We need to stop believing that every social thing that doesn't fit us is because we're allergic and broken. 19 out of 20 will simply be a poor fit for us -for anyone.
I mean, look at how many different Protestant church denominations there are for Christsakes! And most of those are Neurotypicals. Is that them all getting along, fitting in?

Yes, we don't get to choose all our social demands. And yes, we're generally worse at cold calling social stuff than others, but it's also true that we worry about it more than NTs do, they f*ck up nearly as much as we do but the most often pretend they didn't, and so don't keep such a brutal self score as we do.

We can fit in well -to something- but 90%+ of the job is finding the right people -before taking on the self-harassment of harsh over-analytical social reflection.

****
1. The primary reason we don't fit in so well with NTs is because our brains are faster, better, stronger.
2. All humans require filtering to cope with the massive load of true and false data that the entire universe can supply.
3. Autistic brains are significantly more powerful than NTs brains, meaning we 'think' we can handle the input. (we can't)
4. NTs brains quickly realize they can't handle the input and soon enough begin filtering.
5. Nt's brains also quickly begin symbolizing everything to cut back on the needed processing power of full concepts.
6. The symbols -not the full concepts- become the language of communication for NTs.
7. If you don't know the exact symbol that they know, you can't talk to them, the language is too different.
8. NT filtering becomes better/stronger quickly as they age.
9. Filtering means keeping information out.
10. Improving filtering means intentionally getting dumber.
11. Autistics seriously don't want to be dumber (and do keep getting smarter) but don't realize filtering is necessary.
12. The communication gap widens.

It would take a thick book to write all the exceptions and qualifiers to this lil' list and therefore it isn't exactly accurate.
But it gives you an idea of the concept I'm trying to communicate here.

Is this sarcasm?

If not where is the reasoning and proof behind that?

I don't believe it is sarcasm. If you think about. that maybe one of are biggest problems right there. Are brains have so much power in them that we are unable to control it. It's like red-lining an engine or going down the road so fast the the car becomes aerodynamically unstable. It a lot like overclocking a computer. you can only go so far before it crashes. Having more brain power doesn't always mean better intellect( like Albert Einstein).

I hope very much that someday you get to see for yourself that this is not always true -- that someday you do find a group of people who accept you, and who treat you and each other equally and with respect.

This is spot on. I have recognized this in myself, and tried to reprogram my beliefs, to no avail.

Indeed, if you succeeded in that reprogramming, you would effectively have "cured" your autism. It is impossible to change, will power cannot do it, even when you intellectually know exactly what the 'issue' is.

Awesome insight qawer. This describes me very well.

Nah, no sarcasm. LupaLuna had it right.
Some study or another showed that ASD brains react twice as fast as NTs. (generally)
Others show that ASD brains are often about a half pound bigger than NT brains, which for a 3 to 3-1/2 pound unit, that's quite a lot.
The term Autistic/Savant has a meaning and many that don't rise to the level of "Savant" can still be much higher than normal.

****

Sure, not always right 104% of the time, there are exceptions.
The main problem with acting dominant or submissive is that isn't 'exactly' what NTs do, but it's very close.
Nearly all of NTs time and energy is is taken up with vying for rank within their chosen group(s), meaning it is an non-stable "dynamic" social construct. Most courtship and sex falls into this area as well.
If one merely acts submissive their rank will immediately lower (in the view of the NTs), the (approximately) next lower person in the group will then engage the "submissive" in rank "negotiation" behavior.
If one simply uses a 'submission' strategy they'll lose to that person, and to the next and the next. Many people with ASD and such are really not very good at being submissive at all and usually for a very good reason.
Quickly one will either find themselves at the bottom most rung (most picked on) or, more likely -and as qawer pointed out- reacting strongly (and "inappropriately" in NT terms).
Either way they'll soon be out of the group.

****

One relief is that it IS possible to reprogram, there are only 3 small complications
1. The entirety of even a single culture's artificial social construct is enormously complex. Lots of reprogramming.
2. Reprogramming without data is useless, one must have enough experiences with NTs to draw from, whether it's understood or not.
3. Autism is a Neurological Disorder, the new program will only work as well as the areas of the brain that run the program.

Autism probably can never be cured but most of the problems come from not dodging the bullets when reality collides head on with our symptoms. Our behavior responses to these bullets are what cause us the most distress. (eg. Meltdowns are much less of a problem if we can get someplace safe, are temporarily relieved of whatever demands, if they don't cause 'damage', and we have a good, accepting, support system.)
Meltdowns can even be automatically avoided, minimized, or even "cured."
We can 'Matrix' many of the reality bullets, we just move our autism out of the way.
I do this for people every day, I see this work every day.

What do the ASD brains react twice as fast to? I always read here that people with ASD generally have slow processing speeds, and research has shown that to be an area of struggle on tests etc. I did my own research and the only thing that came up was that autistic kids react faster, on average, to simple motion. The information seems too vague to be anything to work off of. I don't really understand how an autistic brain can be described as faster as a result.

I can't find the exact studies you are referring to regarding brain size. Assuming they are accurate, the size differential in brain may make it more powerful in one way or another, but if you consider that neanderthal's (and I think some other species) had larger brains than homo sapiens, a conclusion is impossible to make. Granted, in the case of neaderthals they had larger bodies, but without knowing what the extra half pound is made of and what it is for, we won't know just how powerful an autistic brain is. This study here 'shows' 89% of autistic kids have 'normal sized' brains.

I agree with an autistic brain possibly being 'stronger', though strictly in the realm of sensory input (it is arguable as to what the term strength means in this case). As LupaLuna described it, crashes occur (sensory overclocking). I don't think the strength of an autistic brain would prevent one from fitting in, I think it is just the different wiring that causes that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that autistic brains can't be stronger - not in the slightest is that my point. I just don't think you can generalize autistic brains as being 'faster, better and stronger' than NT brains. Every individual is unique and has different capabilities, ASD or NT. Autistic brains and NT brains vary in their strengths and weaknesses.

This is true. We don't fit into hierarchies. But that does not mean that none of us enjoy working with people that are similarly oriented and that complement our talents and interests. I'm very comfortable relying on the help from others to achieve a particular goal or to be able to tackle a project that simply can't be delivered by a single individual.

When I worked as an employee, I always quickly ended up in a position of team leader, not because I wanted to manage people, but because of my domain expertise and because I never bossed people around. It is well known that teams work best if the members are self-selected, and if there is no status hierarchy. Teams of NTs are the most unproductive, precisely because most team members are preoccupied with establishing a status hierarchy rather than opening disclosing individual talents, strengths, and weaknesses, and then organising the work accordingly.

Self-selected teams that contain a majority of autists behave very differently, and are capable of the most amazing results. Such teams are not found within established organisations, but modern technology allows such teams to crystalise and organise as a non-hierarchical network of complementary experts.

The resulting concept of organisation of course flies in the face of established management doctrine. Instead of dictating the mission of the company and a command and control paradigm to execute the business plan, the approach calls for a mind map of the expertise within the team, and bottom-up exploration of what can be created by allowing every team member to focus on their talents and passions.

Tapping into all the autistic strengths requires new forms of organisation, and new forms of collaboration. From my perspective, trying to find a niche within a hierarchical organisation amounts to a waste of precious energy.

The big challenges that I see:

1. Autists represent a small minority, and established organisations and mainstream culture simply do not cater well (if at all) for small minorities.
2. Autistic teams can't fully isolate themselves from mainstream culture. This means a perpetual need for an interface role between the cultures.

The perception and labelling of autists as loners only acts in the interests of mainstream culture, by enabling a divide-and-conqor approach for dealing with minorities that don't play by established rules and norms.

In a pond of NTs I am a loner, but in a different context I am a committed team player. Yes, to be productive, I need to spend a lot of time alone, but I also get enormous enjoyment out of regular interaction with a group of self-selected colleagues. Why? Because we share knowledge about how the physical world works, and because no social status gradient gets in the way of direct communication. By the by we also help each other address the social challenges we face.

I don't know if it is absolutely impossible, but for all practical purposes it might as well be. But of course deep down I don't really want to change it anyway, because I want to lead myself.

The real problem has been having lack or loss of confidence in my ability to lead myself. Especially in the last 5-7 years, I have had sort of a long crisis of self-doubt. I guess it's partly an age thing, in my twenties I felt more okay with just being young and not having it all figured out. Then getting in my thirties I thought maybe I should be more of a grown up (the NT way) and I started trying to figure out how to adapt myself to do that.

Essentially I got really scared that I might not be able to survive on my own and live independently doing things my own way. Which was what led me into trying to reprogram myself, to not need to be so independent, to instead being able to do that interdependent, socially-connected thing that NTs do with each other. I started trying to change the way I relate to people, to basically just become a more social person, and needless to say it did NOT work. It made me absolutely miserable, and things got worse and worse, until I inevitably had to just withdraw back into my own little world.

KingdomOfRats wrote a brilliant post recently that finally brought all of this in focus for me:

Damn - That is brilliant.

agreed. I usually feel uncomfortable fittin in a group because I usually do not fit in. When I am truly accepted it is actually a wonderful sensation, and I love feeling part of a group.

what study?
plus bigger brain means nothing. I am sure you know that.
faster, better, stronger... this sounds like an unbased hysteric ideology or at most a bad song lyrics.