Where do you draw the line?

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I've seen a lot of posts around here that mention people who have 'aspie tendencies', but aren't classed as having AS. It makes me wonder about the nature of AS. If you have the genes but show only a few symptoms, do you still have AS? Where do you draw the line between 'aspie tendencies' and the actual thing? I'm wondering mostly because I recently realized (thanks to a post by Noetic which she probably doesn't even remember) that I simply don't exhibit some of the core parts of AS, and I don't know why. But whenever I figure that I'm missing too many major symptoms to possibly have it, I read another post here that perfectly describes some of the quirks and problems in my own personality, and I'm back at square one.

I won't bore you by listing all my symptoms and nonsymptoms, but I want to know: do you think AS can manifest itself at such widely varying degrees that a person can be nearly a neurotypical while still technically having AS? Do you only have AS if you're severely impaired by it, as the DSM-IV states?

Last edited by ghotistix on 13 Apr 2005, 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Even if you don't have all of the sympoms, you could still possibly be diagnosed as PDD-NOD which covers the gap between AS and NT.

Thanks for mentioning that! I never thoroughly looked into where PDD-NOS fit in with the rest of autism, and it makes perfect sense.

ohh this came up in another thread, I think I was talking to Jetson, but I guess I use my sister aa an example of someone who has some AS characteristics but is not significantly disabled by them. I say that because she has 'theory of mind' along with her AS characteristics, whereas I don't.

I wonder this myself, as well, ghotistix.

I have many "aspie traits," but I am not diagnosed. I do not think I am severly impaired, either. I mean, there are certain things I can not and therefore do not do, such as go to concerts or bars. I get overloaded in classes, which leaves me feeling horrible, and I have a very difficult time making and keeping friends. It takes me longer to learn things than it does for most people, and I feel like I am muddling my way through life.

On the other hand, I am still in school, and doing fairly well. And I do have some friends. All this, without having treatment.

What do you mean by the "core symptoms" of AS? What are the "core symptoms"?

Which post was it? If it is the one I remember, then my point as not that you "do not" have these things, but more that perhaps your view of what some things in the diagnostic criteria are, may be based on stereotypes, rather than on the wide variety of ways in which autistic symptoms can exhibit.

I do think that is a problem made worse by more and more psychologist and GPs diagnosing AS, generally people who do not diagnose based on experience but based on stereotypical "checklists". (The only people who "strictly" use the DSM to diagnose or exclude ASDs are those without enough experience to diagnose autism in the first place, IMHO!)

It is hard to know exactly where the line lies between someone who is essentially 'normal' with some 'odd' behaviours, and someone who has AS. That's because autism covers a spectrum of abilities and traits, and I suppose the same can be said for NT-'ism.'

Personally, I feel much like Civet described. I cope, but I do feel like I am just muddling through most of the time.

The DSM-IV requires that the AS/Autism/PDD-NOS symptoms be clinically significant and lead to a profound disability in communication, non-verbal socialization and employment.

There is a separate phenominon called "Shadow Syndromes" which are cases where a person isn't 100% NT but a neurological disorder isn't fully realized. See the page at http://www.addresources.org/article_shadow_syndromes_ratey.php for a quick description.

There is a very fine line between Asperger's Syndrome and "Shadow Autism". For example, in terms of quantity I have all of the symptoms required for a DSM-IV diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome, but in qualitative terms the symptoms are in some cases mild enough that I have learned to work around them and therefore no longer suffer a severe employment disability (although communication is still seriously impaired and socialization skills are generally poor but variable depending on circumstance). When I go for a Dx I expect to be told I have Asperger's Syndrome, but if I get a doctor who is blinded by my coping skills then "Shadow Autism" is a more likely diagnosis than PDD-NOS, as PDD-NOS covers the cases where the criteria of AS are not met but the three disabilities are still present to a profound degree.

The important thing to remember is that if the symptoms are not present in quantity then you could be facing a completely different set of problems. For example, a comorbid case of bipolar disorder and ADHD or OCD would present like a cut-down version of AS where half the diagnostic criteria would be strongly present and others missing entirely.

That is a good point. That's the thing for me, I mean OK I had the typical AS development, speech before walking, balance problems, lecturing people on my interests etc. and outwardly I can cope quite well, but in terms of how I experience things and how I function (mechanically speaking) I seem to share a lot more with people diagnosed with autism than with those diagnosed with AS.

Also, even though I was deemed "precocious" and read early and spoke on time, my language and comprehension did not begin to come into action (in a flexible way, with full understanding, being able to spontaneously and flexibly communicate) until my teens. (For example, my parents sent me to a local kids group that was free and we were sometimes read bible stories. I avidly blabbed on and on about these things, but it was only in my early teens that I began to understand and comprehend what they actually meant, and then I quite swiftly said my goodbyes to organised religion)

I think I am much more "broadly" affected than many on AS forums, but there are many who have far fewer traits than myself, yet are far more affected in some of them.

At work I have contact with many geeks, and as I observe them, I get more and more convinced that there is no clear line between AS and NT. I see people who exhibit several aspie traits, but do fine in their lives (even if their socializing is somewhat limited by NT standards). I usually draw a line by using the C criterion from the DSM-IV: "The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." (note that we have "or" here). I am not sure what "clinically significant" means. I understand it to be "disabling", i.e. person is socially withdrawn, etc.

Some people might have mimicked traits from their parents, etc. My little brother looks up to me and has slowly picked up a few of my aspie traits. He's far too social to be AS, but he has a few traits thanks to me.

I have no idea what PDD-NOS and PDD-NOD are. I have little knowledge of what "Theory of Mind" is also.

I'm mostly thinking of things like sensory overload, stimming, strong obsessions/routines and difficulty with picking up nonverbal cues, none of which I seem to have.


I can't find it now, but it was in the topic about having trouble with convincing people you have AS.


But the stereotypes themselves must have come from somewhere. I know spectrum disorders can be hugely different from person to person, but what else can you make diagnosis judgments on, if not a list of common symptoms?


This page has a pretty good explanation.

That was the one I meant.


Yes that is true, common symptoms, but to genuinely understand how varied these can be, you need to study a very broad range of people.

I mean, hand-flapping and rocking are common "stims" but how many people who "know" about those things as being "typical of autism" actually have any idea why people might "stim", and how many different ways there are to do so?

Also, "impairment of imagination" is often misinterpreted as "LACK" thereof. However, many professionals have realised that the main way in which this manifests is some kind of fear of change, and difficulties in anticipating and predicting situations and reactions. Yes some have a strong preference for factual information, can't make up stories, don't like and can't follow non-fiction books etc. but that does not mean that this is the case for everyone on the spectrum. Impairment also does not have to mean "less", it can also mean what LOOKS like "too much" but is more linked with a difficulty with imagining "possible reality" or telling the difference between reality and fantasy.

Remember that the DSM-IV uses the word "or" a lot. Just because many Aspies have a particular trait doesn't mean you must also have that trait. For example, many people on here say they have gross motor problems, but that's not even mentioned in the DSM-IV. To suggest you don't have AS because you lack a common deficit that's not officially part of the AS diagnostic criteria or because you have trait #1 while others have trait #2 (when both are listed traits) is a bit narrow minded.

BTW, having a "meltdown" due to sensory overload is not a symptom, either. It's an indication that the person has an increased sensitivity and a low capacity for stress or a particularly sharp threshold for stress beyond which they can't cope effectively.

I've never relied on the DSM-IV nearly as much as my actual experience with people here, but I mentioned it because it's a more objective look at the nitty gritty of AS than a collection of personal accounts. I wasn't trying to put forth the notion that I believe I don't have AS just because I don't fit the DSM-IV criteria. Actually, the idea that I might not have AS at all only came into my head once I came here and got to know real people who have it, not when I read a list of common symptoms back when I was (unofficially) diagnosed.

'aspie tendencies'?

Main Idea:

BROKEN DOWN BY TOPIC BULLETED!

• Genes but show only a few symptoms?

1)...PDD-NOD which covers the gap between
AS and NT.

2)...she has 'theory of mind' along with her
AS characteristics

FROM GHOST HUNTER.....
"THEORY OF MIND? EXPLAIN? I have academic
theories but that is just on paper"

• Where do you draw the line between 'aspie
tendencies' and the actual thing?



FROM GHOSTHUNTER.......
"What is considered significant in those categories?"

• do you think AS can manifest itself at such widely
varying degrees that a person can be nearly a
neurotypical while still technically having AS?

1)...my sister as an example of someone
who has some AS characteristics but is
not significantly disabled by them.

2)...I have many "aspie traits," but I am not
diagnosed. I do not think I am severly
impaired, either.



FROM GHOSTHUNTER.....
"I can agree with you on this, one can be
intelligent, yet ineffective in otherways,
I-Myself fall in this categorie"



FROM GHOSTHUNTER.....
"Very true!"

•Shadow Syndromes



1)...mild enough that I have learned to work
around them and therefore no longer suffer
a severe employment disability (although
communication is still seriously impaired and
socialization skills are generally poor but
variable depending on circumstance).

FROM GHOSTHUNTER.....
"This is definely a quesionable area"



FROM GHOSTHUNTER.....
"At least you had a semi-normal childhood,
(BTW)a semi-normal childhood than early
diagnoses and delays that will have more
impact in ones life"- I AM REFERRING TO THE
SPEECH ISSUES!



FROM GHOSTHUNTER.....
"There is online a article on Autism and Aspergers
pages(academic) that was about Silicon Valley
having the highest AS numbers and growing.
I think it is called "Asperger's, the geek syndrome"
or something like that."


•Theorie of Mind?



I have little knowledge of what "Theory of Mind" is also."

•Sensory Overload?

FROM GHOSTHUNTER....
"This is one of the most common
linking traits of AS/HFA"

•Stimming?

FROM GHOSTHUNTER....
"I would like to know more about what
stimming is too?"



•Strong obsessions/routines?

•Difficulty with picking up nonverbal cues?

Last edited by Ghosthunter on 13 Apr 2005, 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.