I've just been to an illuminating lecture on theory of mind

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The lecturer said that ToM develops in regular kids at around age 5, but for autistic kids there's usually a 5-year delay-- if they develop it at all. Well, that makes a lot of sense to me. I was 11-- to be exact, 11 years and almost 4 months-- before it occurred to me for the first time to put myself in someone else's shoes. I remember where I was and what I was doing right then; it was a real 'eureka moment'.

Then the lecturer showed us an animation developed by Uta Frith in which two triangles, a big one and a little one, are moving around inside a box. When the animation finished she talked about how we even ascribe feelings and motives to triangles. Apparently we were supposed to have thought that the big triangle was trying to coax the little one out of the box and the little one was acting scared, etc. Well, I just didn't see it. Towards the end I had seen that the big triangle was trying to block the entrance to the box so that the little one couldn't get in, but apart from that all I had seen was a pair of triangles moving around in a box. No doubt if someone had played the animation for me again I would have been able to ascribe human motives to the triangles, but on the first go-round I just couldn't. Innaresting.

I'm not sure about the TOM stuff. My daughters would fail the Sally-Ann test, for example, but at the same time, they certainly seem to realize that other folks have independent thought. For example, they'll lie to avoid getting into trouble. This implies TOM. I think they'd fail the Sally-Ann test only because their language is impaired and they don't really understand the scenario or are missing the point.

If my daughters were to witness two triangles moving round in a square, they would definitely personalize these shapes. I don't know that they'd get out of it what the evaluator is looking for (apparently, that one triangle was helping the other), but they'd definitely say that they were playing, or chasing each other, or fighting or something.

So, I'm not sure if young autistics truly lack theory of mind, although it's not clear that the assertion is that they're actually lacking TOM altogether, or that it's just impaired. I could buy the latter assertion, but my duaghters do things that, to me, indicate that they have some inkling that others have thoughts and beliefs that are different than their own - and they're only four. It could be that the tests are just misinterpreted by the autistic children due to their language impairments, or something, and thus their answers are "wrong", and since the tests are designed to prove a point, their wrong answer is interpreted in a certain way by the evaluators.

Just shootin' from the hip, though - I don't really know the details

I think it is an illusion that NT's develop a theory of mind at all. They have much more restictive thinking and inability to comprehend how another person feels. Or perhaps that is a deficit more exclusive to some NT parents of kids on the spectrum.

As for the Sally Anne test - this was discussed recently on a blog. I had to read it a few times to understand what the purpose of the test was because the wording didn't really make any sense. Others comented that they had to do the same. After seeing the reasoning behind this "test" I am even more unimpressed with this theory. Haven't seen the triangle test - but it sounds weird. Sounds like interpreting the "thought" of cartoon triangles? I think instead NT's place upon others their thoughts about how things should be and then label as wrong anyone who doesn't act the way they do.

Yeah, I tend to agree. As an NT, I can tell you how empathy works. It's not like we have some ability to "feel" anothers person's emotions empathically. We imagine ourselves in a situation that is similar to the person we are trying to empathize with, and imagine how we would feel in the situation. So, as long as autistics have emotions and have imagination, they should be able to experience NT-style empathy.

Yes - I think alot of the supposed deficits of those on the spectrum - inability to empathize, lack of theory of mind, ect - are more like differences not deficits.

They seem to be differences of expression rather than whether one feels differently than another. I think ToM is totally bogus or we all have it-making the study of it pointless (in regards to Developmental Delays/ASD). It does come across as something that NTs don't understand and so want to label it in a derogatory, inferior way.

I think theory of mind develops out of misreading what is going on in the brain. Instead, they try to ascribe it to typical behavior, emotion and reaction and it fails. I might think what would I do in your case (and even realize that you might do something else), but I am limited by what I take into my brain in input. You might look at me with an expression on your face or in your eyes and think that is perfectly clear. I might recognize you are doing something with your face and eyes and that you are trying to convey a meaning to me, but I won't recognize what because I can't read eyes or faces. Another Aspie might do fine with that. That renders the entire thing subjective and unsubstantiated as far as I'm concerned. It's only as good as that particular Psych's experiences and reading of those experiences. Too many unknown factors to make any real diagnosis.


The other thing is thought and emotion. You might respond to a situation with emotion and I might with thought. For example, we both see a thread that is sexist in appearance. Member A is mad at all women today because Member A has recently been dumped by women three times. So he goes off about this, that and the other thing about all women. Member X1 being female might get extremely upset and only see the sexism, thereby responding more from a place of emotion or social injustice. Member X2, being also female, may look at it and shrug and think he's having a rough dating time. Well, if he doesn't get over his anger he probably won't get another date. Just because I don't take it personally doesn't mean I'm lacking theory of mind. Just because I can put myself in his shoes and see where he's coming from when he acts that way doesn't mean I have it either. Just because another woman is offended, doesn't mean she lacks theory of mind. It just may be that she feels the social injustice overrides any understanding she has for how that guy feels. Then, there's the guy. Just because he's sounding off online today doesn't mean he never has theory of mind to another female as long as he lives. It may or may not have to do with AS at all. He may be just have a rough dating streak and not editing what he's typing because he's emotional about it (angry).

Any one of those people in that scenario can be misread by the interviewers experience and ability to read them. It's subjective once again. It has no basis in reality because it is only as good as one person's interpretation. Considering the differences we see on here, that can just as easily happen Aspie to Aspie. So the whole thing has to be tossed as a diagnosis and they need to come up with something concrete that is testable and sustainable. Otherwise, it's just the street light effect and nothing else. I randomly saw it there so it must be a fact for all. Hack science.

Wow! That's interesting!

What became of it?

I think the whole Theory of Mind thing is crap.I have a lot of experience with NTs, who dont have a clue about what I am thinking or seem to care that I may think/feel/experience things differently then them.The whole DX of AS is based on an NT assumption that there is a "correct" way to perceive reality....not different...."correct".They dont even seem to question the concept of correct beyond the def. of...."majority rules".

I know people think and feel different(a big DUH on that).What I dont know,( because I am not psychic) and what I do not "presume" to know, is WHAT they are thinking and feeling.The only thing I can do is think how I would think or feel in similiar situations(Do unto others as you would have them do unto you).....usually I get it wrong because I think and feel differently....I process, perceive and prioritize.... differently.So if I respond to them in a way that they consider inappropriately...it is not because I dont realize that they have their own mind but because their own mind is so different that I cant figure out what they want(and honestly,often dont care to give them what they want even when I can because they would simply suck up the few resources I have to offer)Many people are insatiable sponges.....

I worked with disabled clients for 4 years,teens for 8 years,now I work with dogs.I give them all that I have to give and think I am pretty good at meeting their needs because they are simple......attention and honesty without judgement.I give them what I want and that is all I can give.

I guess I have the hardest time with T of M ,when it involves people who I can not relate to ,as I have not experienced any thing similiar to their life experiences and they "seem" to me to be either insane or illogical.That would mostly be wealthy,ultra religous,Republican, materialistic and people who need constant human interaction.I just can not get into their heads but I do know that they have their own minds.It is just beyond my comprehension.

I'm going to have to research all this stuff you are talking about; it sounds interesting. I have never heard of Theory of Mind before, or of a Sally Anne test.

As for Aspies being empathetic, I'm a bit ambivalent. While I cannot 'read' people and half the time I do not know what emotions they are displaying or feeling, I am cursed with an objective point of view and can putr myself in their shoes and see both (or all) sides of an argument. I can know how I would feel if I were them, though usually I am completely wrong about how they actually do feel because things affect me differently than they do NTs.

I do remember when I was very little, I used to believe that I was the only one who actually existed because I was the only one whose thoughts and motivations I could read. I thought the whole world (or the part I was in) was a giant laboratory and people were constantly watching what I did and everyone in it was a test to see how I reacted. Maybe that's where my paranoia cme from. I even thought that what I was seeing was in color and where I wasn't looking was in black & white, or some such that people knew what Iwas looking at.

Tanz wrote

"i do remember when I was very little, I used to believe that I was the only one who actually existed because I was the only one whose thoughts and motivations I could read. I thought the whole world (or the part I was in) was a giant laboratory and people were constantly watching what I did and everyone in it was a test to see how I reacted."

Lol i did that all throught my childhood and even when a tenager and kenw it was not real most of my fansty worlds were based around that kinda conspet. suprisling i have never consered it may be the root of my paranoia

Theories of mind are pointless and dumb, it's that so-called "neccessary bs" in psychology that NT psychologist talk about, and yes it's mentally restrictive. It's ironic us aspies are tagged for not having it and that being treated like a disability, it's like living in a world of blind people and being labled disabled for being able to see.