Aspie Parents and their children

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Hi all - I know this may ruffle feathers and apologize in advance if it does - I do not mean offense and don't believe all Aspie parents are like this, I just want to open up the topic of discussion because it is something I'm afraid I'll do to my kids and I have had it dealt to me from my Aspie parents... what I'm talking about is emotional abuse and neglect.

We all know people on the spectrum have trouble with theory of mind and at times, empathy (or too much empathy at times). Although this effects everyone on the spectrum in varying degrees, I know I'm concerned I may cause harm to my own children one day due to this. Given that ASD sufferers of course have the best intentions (especially with their kids) where is the line drawn between emotional neglect/abuse and just being a part of a different family? I know in my family, where both parents have ASD, the house was often tense, my mother often controlling, us kids (including those on the spectrum) often misunderstood and used as scapegoats or shown favoritism, and meltdowns abounded. This was very hard for all of us (including my parents) my mother often says she should have never had children because she thinks she didn't cope well or knew how to deal with us.

Are any of you worried you will somehow damage your children because of your problems as a person on the spectrum? Do any of you feel you were affected negatively by a parents with ASD? Do you want to avoid having kids because of being on the spectrum? Do you think there are ways to get around troubles like these?

Despite believing I am on the spectrum, I do think my emotional needs were not met as a child and that it still bothers me today. I've often thought of avoiding motherhood because of this. Unfortunately my parents are not as open to working towards a united family and any support out there would fall on deaf ears as they are so bad with theory of mind that they don't believe they have a problem. Having knowledge of what they have and having an understanding of why they've done things and what they've gone through hasn't necessarily made things better for us.

Thoughts?

Assuming the parents are Aspie, and the children are too, I can see how it would be a problem in the past without all the knowledge and support for autism that is around these days.

In your case, I assume that you've educated yourself thoroughly regarding the spectrum, and you also have a load of experience. If you have the will to be a great mother, I strongly recommend that you don't prevent yourself from succeeding in that goal. Posting this alone shows your level of consideration, and how genuinely kind of a person you are.

I have no relevant experience myself, so I literally cannot offer any helpful advice regarding your parents.

If you were to have NT children, I'm not too sure how that would work out. From what I've read, parents with ASD seem to have just as much trouble providing the level of support needed for an NT child, as an NT parent would have when raising an autistic child.

I would also suggest you see a parenting councilor, preferably someone with experience in the realm of autism or mental differences/disabilities.

I'm 19 and am far off being a parent, so I do apologize if whatever I say seems presumptuous.

ConfusedALot, you have a key quality that your abusive parents did not: insight. This awareness will always influence your own parenting of your children. I can understand your fears.

You have an acute awareness, from your own experience, that children need protection and nurture. You are highly motivated to provide that (or you wouldn't have written your post).

I had extremely abusive parenting and have 3 adult children of my own, two of them on the spectrum. They all have done really well, and part of the reason is that I strived to do the opposite to what my parents had done. For example: my parents criticised, ignored, never had anything positive to say, no affection, not even basic courtesies like good morning. They saw their role as providing food and somewhere to sleep, basically.

In the years to come you will meet other women parenting, and some of them you will admire for their skills and easy connection with their children. Befriend them; enlist them as mentors, friends and advisors to give you feedback when you feel the need for some support.
Just make sure first that they have a positive attitude, a validating kind of personality, that they have mentoring qualities.

Enlisting this kind of support is really important.

Though neither is ideal, it's better to over-protect your children than under-protect them. Sometimes we ASD parents can be naive and too trusting of others.

Healthy happy children need "emotional nutrients" in regular doses: attention, affection, affirmation, appreciation, approval. Children learn that they either matter to their parent/s, or that they don't. And emotional malnutrition is felt (correctly in most cases) as not being loved, or worthy of love, by the child. Did your parents ever ask you "How was your day?" Mine didn't, not even once. Nor did they care. But we can learn to do this as parents ourselves. Often all we have to do is to do the opposite to what our parents did!

You will learn more and know more as the years go by, and it is so true: when you know better, you do better. I am not saying it is easy;
you will have to be dedicated, self-monitoring, and you will make some mistakes. But all parents make mistakes.

So much undermining and stigmatising of ASD parents goes on, on the internet, that I think this stereotyping hate-speech barrage has the effect of crippling the confidence of young ASD parents, and makes them feel shamed, inadequate and unworthy. Don't let it get to you.
Surround yourself with the right support and go for it!

I see no reason to presume that abuse and neglect are more common among Aspie parents, but if there are studies showing this to be the case, my assumptions would be that people with ASD are vulnerable to abuse, and that perhaps it is the abuse and neglect a person has experienced that leads to the person not knowing how to, or being to angry, or for whatever reason not doing better.

I feel still negatively impacted by my mother who seems now like maybe has Aspergers. I feel negatively impacted by flashbacks and by knowing through and through that to her, I was an object, a thing, an it, never a human being until for the first time when I was 17 or 18. In no way do I see any rational way to generalize the behavior she engaged in, the torture I experienced, as due to her possible ASD. I think people with ASD have many challenges, but making someone an object and directly communicating this to a child takes an active communicative effort. Even the most severely impacted Autist who might have trouble meeting a child's needs or predicting or caring for the child is not as a result of their autism tearing away at another beings humanity in that same direct way. They may be oblivious and they may be unable to show the care needed but they are not engaging in a campaign to destroy the others soul. The latter is wrong and would not be caused by ASD IMO.

Yes, I understand being blamed by a parent who never commits any wrong act and to whom I am always at fault and bad and perceived as neglectful, disinterested, overly demanding for my very existence. Understanding maybe my mothers needs were not met does not help me. I think if you have love to give you can choose a path of love to give to others.

The hardest part about having children for me is not loving or giving to them, or understanding them. You get to know children gradually and they start out transparently honest as newborns, no ulterior motives, no lies, no hidden agendas. A style of parenting close to attachment parenting suited me and it's an advantage there is so much out there to support this as it really helped me bond. The hardest part is learning to play by the social rules so you can be there for them and help children do things.

I think that attachment is what's needed by children not neurotypical parents, and there is no inherent disability in attachment that necessarily occurs with ASD, everyone is different, and attachment can be very strong. Skills to recognize a child's needs and care for the child are terribly important, but the internet notion of Aspies not attaching, not caring, not being there is to me incredibly distressingly invalid. This is much more complicated than that.

I love my children and people seem to see me as a decent parent. I certainly fail in many ways, but my children have a strong attachment to me and me to them that allows them I think to feel far stronger than children without that.

Thank all for your kind replies - they have given me a lot to think about.

Norny - thank you for your advice. I think your suggestion of seeing a councillor when in need of parenting advice is a good one. I will keep this in mind for the future. I think the problems come when the parents with ASD do not seek help and are not self aware of any issues they have, and instead think themselves exempt of all criticism. This is what I worry about most.

B19 - Thank you for your kind words of encouragment. It is good to hear you are an Aspie parent that has been successful in breaking away from childhood neglect and abuse and seeking to fulfill the needs in your children that you missed growing up. It sounds like your parents were a bit more straightforward with their withholding of emotion than mine. My parents did say nice things at times and did ask us how we were, but it was obvious they did not want to know and could not cope with our emotional needs and problems. They were very critical as you say yours were though, and often would follow a compliment with 10 criticisms. We were often called "oversensitive" "spiteful" "attention seeking" "immature" and "needy" when all we wanted was their approval and understanding. I think knowing this, I will try my best to always follow a criticism with 10 compliments and always listen to my childrens needs and emotions as objectively as possible, without flying into fits when I percieve them as attacking me (as my parents did to us when we tried to explain to them how they treated us and how we needed to be treated).

I like what you said about "emotional nutrients" - it is very true. I definitely think I have a good mentor in my husband's mother. Yes, she has her problems, but I find her much more level-headed, open, loving and nurturing than my own mother and will definitely take your advice and have her teach me and guide me. I think it's true that we do need to be self-monitoring, and I feel I am that way already, so I think I may be half way there to being ready to nurture others needs. You are right - there is a lot of negativity online around Aspie parents and having expereinced my own Aspie parents, this does not make this any better for me. But your words have certainly convinced me that there are good Aspie parents out there.

Waterfalls - thank you for your comments. They have been very thought provoking. I do think my view on ASD parents is skewed as I have only expereinced bad ASD parents in real life (including one of my own siblings). They have all suffered abuse, in most cases severe abuse, so this may be the main contributor to neglect in Aspie parents, the same as NTs, so you're probably right in saying that. I am sorry you're mother was so horrible to you and don't think being Autistic is an excuse for such outright abuse. While I don't believe my parents went on a deliberate campaign to destroy me and my siblings, I do think their behaviour came off as such. It often felt like they thought we were their enemies and they would attack us, and the fact that they are unwilling to see the error in this is what is most damaging. It seems that from the beginning you were very interested in being a good parent though, which I think my parents did not think about - they had children to primarily fill their own needs and we had to accomodate them, not the other way around. I think if you were concerened about this from the beginning though, and consciously went out of your own way to learn and find ways to connect to your children, then you must be a better parent than your mother is automaticly.

I like this idea of attachment parenting and think I would like to implement it one day when I have children - it seems to have helped you immensley which is very encouraging for me to hear. I think in my case I will need to read a lot to gain skills in meeting any future children's needs, because I have no real clue about how to meet this, other than knowing I should not be like my parents were.

With all this in mind, I'd like to ask you all:
Do you think it is more important that ASD parents are self aware in order to work towards a better relationship with their children? As in learning to be accountable for their actions, take constructive criticism, and use tools at their disposal to improve their parenting skills? I think this seems to be the real underlying problem, as self aware parents seem more able to teach themselves how to be better parents and are more able to be emotionally attached to their children.
I only ask this in terms of Aspie parents because NT parents are supposedly less likely to have a lack of theory of mind and are more likely to pick up on body language/facial expression in their children (or so I've read), but please feel free to bring in NT parents into the discussion (I'm intrigued as both of my parents were certainly not NT ).
Also, do you think a parenting book for Aspie parents, by Aspie parents, could be beneficial? (or is there any like this already?)

I think the most important thing is being able to accept and enjoy your child for who he or she is, to accept how he or she feels and celebrate his or her successes, help with where he or she struggles, to see him or has as a person, separate and unique and deserving to live and to be happy. If you can do that, you can find ways around a lot of issues. You have to sort out how to be a parent to your child after you meet them because each one is different, even within the same family.

When you attach to a newborn you learn to read them. This is very different from with children and adults, where people say Aspies miss social cues but there are all kinds of confusing things going on. An infant who is done eating pushes breast or bottle away, an adult who is done eating leans back a little, compliments the food, it can be confusing if they don't eat are they on a diet, etc. Infant cues may be subtle at times, but there isn't any lying. I think that makes a huge difference for being able to understand ones own child, that you get to know them young before they learn to pretend.

Theory of Mind is a theory, not a set in stone fact. If it exists, if the theory is valid (I am doubtful) then it would likely exist on a continuum, just like ASD: some would have it profoundly, others not at all.

If you can go to a film, or a play, and understand the unspoken nuances, and the film you see is the same film that others describe, then you are not impaired by the claims made by the "theory of minders". One size does not fit all, though you would think so when you read stuff on the net written by the theory of mind stereotypers.

Children communicate directly, not indirectly (until they are teenagers, then you are lucky if they communicate with you much at all! lol)
They don't do subtlety, for the most part, they are transparent in their stated motives, needs, concerns. And they will appreciate the same from you, combined with your honesty, openness, willingness to listen.

Qualities which I think you probably have in spades, so I think you will be fine.


Here is a quote from an article Ariane Zurcher wrote for the Huffington Post, with which I agree:

"Bring up the word autism and you'll hear a great many theories. Simon Baron-Cohen, the man who I believe has singlehandedly done more damage to the perception of autistics than any other human being (though there are arguably a number of people vying for that title), has a number of theories regarding autism.

His most famous is the "Theory of Mind," based on the results from the now-famous "Sally-Anne" test. The Sally-Anne test, where 61 children (20 autistic, 14 Down's Syndrome and 27 neuro-typical) were shown two dolls, is an example of bad "science." Sally has a basket in front of her, while Anne has a box. The Sally doll, presumably made to move by an adult, which further complicates the test, puts a marble into her basket and leaves the room. While she is gone, Anne takes the marble from Sally's basket and places it in the box. When Sally returns, the child is asked, "Where will Sally look for the marble?" Only 20 percent of the autistic children were able to correctly answer the question -- Sally will look in her basket.

From the test results Simon Baron-Cohen concluded "that the core problem in autism is the inability to think about other people or one's own thoughts" according to the blog, holah.co.uk. Except that his test did not take into consideration the challenges many autistic children have in sequencing, language problems, misunderstandings of prepositions, the level of anxiety or stress levels of the autistic participants at the time of testing. Nor did it take into account literal thinking, something many autists have, all of which made the test and the questions asked that much more challenging."

Hope this helps.

Which brings up something I question: If you are on the autistic spectrum, Why, Why, WHYYYY are you having kids at all? Do you really think you can deal with the expense, the noise, the smelly diapers? I know I cannot and I do the most humane thing of all, chose to not have children.

Yes. And the harder things to deal with aren't kids.

It's great that you made a good choice for you.
But that's you.

Thank you Waterfalls and B19, those are great answers and have really made me feel more positive about a future as a mother. I do feel like I have theory of mind most of the time, and can certainly understand movies and plays, which is a good point. The fact that children are more transparent is a good point too. And I like your point Waterfalls of connecting and getting to know your child when they're young and before they start pretending - it makes sense that would help.

BobinPgh - you raise a good point about sensory overload. I don't have a problem with sound, but feel uncomfortable with dirt and touch. I don't think I'm as bad as some on the spectrum with sensory sensitivity though. Is your sensory sensitivity so bad that you'd rather never consider having children at all? The expense will be huge, but my husband and I both work and are very frugal and aren't looking at having children yet. But please do discuss if you believe this aspect is hardest.

Good choice for the planet too - with 7 Billion people in the world, do we really need any more? I would think if you are bothered by crowds as most people on the spectrum are, why make the world more crowded?

Agreed

To answer the above, YES! To be truthful I am now in my 50s and I thank myself every day I am child free!. I was not diagnosed until recently so now I know why I am this way but am still glad I am single.

Yes, the expense will be huge, yet people do more research into buying an appliance than they do before having children. You have to consider that most of us on the spectrum have poor work histories and an 85% (! !!) unemployment rate. Even I have had problems with people talking about me on jobs and getting me to quit or be fired. Especially a "good job" that is full time and has "good benefits" that you need when you have kids. Any child deserves parents who can afford them and many people in general have kids they cannot afford which is a terrible disservice to the child. Why do poor people have kids they cannot afford? And no, planning to go on welfare when having kids is a bad idea (some people actually do that). In other words, if you have to quit a job because you "cannot stand it" you will have to "stick it out" for the children.

Dirt and touch? Once I worked at a turnpike service plaza that had a huge dumpster/compactor. My job was the custodian and I would have to empty a lot of garbage cans that had a lot of smelly, poopy Pampers. It was the worst part of the job and I did not have to actually wipe the kids. Pampers and Huggies made up a large amount of what was in the dumpster, sometimes as much as a quarter of the contents, much more than any dogs did. We had a container for dog doo and often, it would be packed with Pampers. So, that is really, really, bad for the environment.

Last year, Ellen Pompeno was advertising to get people to donate money because some parents can't afford disposable diapers and some parents cannot afford a washer and dryer either. If you cannot afford those items why are you having kids?

Later on, have you ever dealt with a school district? Just ask your parents because I am sure they had to go to your school to make accommodations for an ASD and they treat parents like crap. I went to a school board meeting once when they built our new high school and they way the school board talks to citizens (who are paying for the place) is demeaning. Maybe NT parents take that in stride but I can't.

I could not deal with being woken up at night and not have enough sleep. Are you sure you want kids waking you up?

That's great if that works for you. I know it must be a relief to be diagnosed and have those answers, so that's good.


Firstly, I would never have children without doing my research (which is what this is). Secondly, my father is on the spectrum and has a great job history with high paying jobs. I also have a full time job and have never been fired (I had jobs all through high school). Thirdly, Australian employers don't provide benefits of any sort other than contributing to superannuation - benefits in jobs is an American thing. Australia has a wonderful public health system (and we are currently fighting to keep it that way). I know it will be hard of course to have children, but that is why I want to prepare now.

I have an aversion to getting dirt on me, that doesn't mean I cant deal with it at all. I have changed diapers before and not the disposable kind. I agree that you should try and not have children if you can't afford them but some people get pregnant unexpectedly or life changes and they suddenly can't afford basic things. Having had impulsive parents I do not want to be impulsive and will take my time to prepare and consider having children before I even try.

Again I think things are different in Australia, but fellow Australians please correct me if I'm wrong. I was never diagnosed as a child so my parents didn't have to deal with any issues relating to accomodating me and since I'm high functioning like most of my family on the spectrum, I didn't have too many problems at school apart from some bullying. I'm sure NT parents and ASD parents both get treated like crap when trying to help their children on the spectrum at school. One of my siblings certainly does but she doesn't think it outweighs the joys of having her child in the first place.

If I was to go ahead and have children I would make accommodations for this and from other's experiences I know that this stage goes by quickly, and that they say the trouble is often worth the joys.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion and are free to make your own choices, but for those of us that would like children or have them, we obviously will want to talk about having them and what it is like, rather than saying we never want them etc.

I knew you were going to say that.