For the Aspies who can work and/or are highly educated

Post Reply New Topic

I think one of the most fundamental differences between an Aspie and someone more typical is the way in which ambiguous language is handled, and the level of tolerance for ambiguity.

Roughly speaking, the more autistic someone is, the more will the person be concerned about potentially ambiguous statements. I always want to resolve ambiguities, ideally as soon as I detect them, and I have had to learn to suppress the urge.

In contrast, a rather typical person will not consciously notice many subtle forms of ambiguity, will shrug off most other instances as inevitable, and in some cases will consciously make use of ambiguous statements in order to soften the blow of negative feedback.

This means that typical individuals are not always better communicators, they simply don't worry much about levels of ambiguity that might easily cause an Aspie to lose sleep. As a result they can carry on conversation with others quite happily, even if there is no real information exchange or shared understanding. Between two neurotypical people the main purpose may be to share emotions, and the "technical details" of the rest of the conversation are not deemed as overly important.

Hi Slave and JBW,

Slave, thanks for reviving this thread. If you're curious, the class used the DISC model of communication styles, and I'm DC. According to the instructor, a certain amount of social difficulty is inherent in people who share my style, because our strong personalities may clash.

We also have to interact with shy introverts who won't want to be direct, as well as counselor types who want peace above honesty or precision. I'm trying to understand their world, because they make up something like 50 percent or more of the population. I don't get how they believe anyone when their lives are so full of white lies and silence. Maybe they read people's emotions and intentions and don't care so much about the rest. One of them is my mother, one is a close friend, and I still don't get them LOL. My close friend modified her style a bit for me over the years, and she shares her emotions and opinions somewhat openly with me, so I trust her. My mother is outgoing and open with her feelings, and she usually tells me the truth LOL, so I always trust her intentions and mostly believe her. What do you think? I don't imagine that a lot of people on this forum are the peaceful, intuitive, counselor types, though we might have some shy, indirect communicators here.


JBW, about the ambiguity thing, that's a big part of why I relate to quite a few of the posts on this forum. I can step back from technicalities when necessary in casual conversation, but ambiguities in more important things really bother me. I often wish for perfect understanding.

One of my friends called me Data because I was trying so hard, and not succeeding, to explain and analyze complex emotions: my romantic feelings, the patterns in my musical preferences, ETC. I wasn't able to be precise, of course, and he said that's because some things can't be quantified or put into precise language. I said that to try is still worth the effort, even if we laugh about it, because how else can we have deeper understanding? He said to live in the moment and share the experience with people instead. What do you think?

Many people don't appreciate the difference between shared information/knowledge and shared understanding. Understanding goes far beyond the knowledge/information that can be acquired by careful listening and rote learning. Developing a shared understanding involves a multi-step process of validation of the concepts that have been communicated. Say I have made a statement about automobiles. In order to be sure that we understand each other, I'll have to give you a few examples of what I mean by "automobile". I could provide one of the following sets of examples:

1. Ford, Toyota, VW, Mitsubishi, Fiat, Hyundai, ...
2. Sedan, station wagon, van, truck, bus, ...
3. My red Ford Fiesta from 1995, the specific van parked in front of my house, the car you drive, ...
4. Passenger cars, trucks, quad bikes, motor cycles, RC model cars, ... (and ideally I'd show you concrete pictures)
5. Cars, spaceships, bicycles, ... (and ideally I'd show you concrete pictures)

Without the examples you'd have no clue of what set of objects I'm talking about. By the way, I'm not making up the examples. As part of a course that I teach students are asked to list 5 examples of automobiles, and I get answers like the ones above. The exercise is a great way to show people how ambiguous human language is.

I think neurotypical people rely on a different notion of "shared understanding", one that does not rely on unambiguous communication, but on shared emotions that are experienced simultaneously.

Developing mathematically precise formal languages is one of my special interests, and I'm lucky to have managed to turn this interest into an income. Visual domain specific languages especially can be very powerful, because they can be designed to be not only precise but also easy to process and understand by humans with relevant domain expertise. Familiar examples include electronic circuit diagrams and other engineering diagrams. Eliminating ambiguity down to the level acceptable for a specific application domain is the reason why such languages are being created. Good formal languages are easy to learn and use, these days typically via appropriate software user interfaces. They allow people to rapidly reach a shared understanding with respect to specific topics or questions. They are also a great way for interacting with automated systems.

The use of formal languages may seem inadequate for day to day interactions that span a broad range of topics. But I remember hearing a story about an Aspie who tried to communicate/explain his romantic feelings in the form of several mathematical curves. I think that can make perfect sense for someone who has difficulties expressing feelings in the typical emotional way. I also find it fascinating that today children are so absorbed in their mobile devices, and intuitively make use of emoticons and other visual tools. It's possible to imagine that non verbal language over time becomes less important and gets replaced by less ambiguous visual language elements on ubiquitous devices with visual representation capabilities.

I do think that it is important to live in the present, and not to get carried away entirely by the past or speculation about the future. But from my perspective feelings can be shared not only in the form of emotions, but also in other forms. Sometimes it may take time to articulate feelings in a way that is accessible for others. Artists and composers may take a long time to complete a piece of work that they are satisfied with.

You may enjoy this old lecture from Jacque Fresco on the creative process and on the limits of language https://youtu.be/Ot1wztaqREw

My friend and I were both going for shared understanding on an emotional level, and we were discussing our differing feelings from different places and times. There were no simultaneously shared emotions or experiences to fall back on.

I tried to explain what were, for me, the emotional components of romantic love and the elements of a song that I thought might be the reason it appealed to me. My friend was not trying to criticize my ability to express my emotions. He was trying to tell me that if you try to break down complex feelings, like love or enjoyment, into their components, that will only take you so far. He was also agreeing with the professor in the video that language is ambiguous, especially when describing feelings.

Maybe it would've been better to also share the stories/experiences of complex emotions, or to express them through music. I can see how mathematical curves can also represent emotional intensity. Very interesting. This is why I like talking to engineers, as long as they don't get frustrated with a non-engineer. Or did I misunderstand? Is your work with formal languages engineering, mathematics, or both?

I have worked with experts from various disciplines, including engineers from a number of specialised fields, software developers, actuaries, logistics experts, and finance experts. In these domains Aspie traits are not uncommon. My background is in mathematics. I collaborate with domain experts to design suitable visual [mathematical] languages that simplify their work. I love the work because I get to learn about many different domains, and my clients love the results, because it enables them to collaborate more effectively with their colleagues in related domains.

Somewhat ironic, someone with poor social communication skills assisting people in increasing the level of shared understanding between teams and organisational silos

Loooolz , am not trying to be big headed but can certainly sympathize.
Big Sighes.

I have a Bachelor's degree in Earth/Space Sciences and Geography (double major). I have completed most of my Masters in Teaching Degree. I have had real problems finding and keeping jobs though. I also hit a brick wall with my student teaching internship because of my horrendous social skills (due to Asperger's and social anxiety).

My father was one of the "practical men" who did not respect degrees. (When Peter Drucker made a study of General Motors, they really tried hard to hide the existence of a PhD in the engineering department!) When I mistook a typo on the first big high school science test for a trick question, and gave the correct answer I got a zero, and lost interest in the phonies of academia, who seemed to outnumber the nerds. I dropped out ASAP. At the time, university was cheap and credit very easy, but I was not at all impressed with the courses, which did not emphasize efficiency or sustainability.
After a decade of various experiences, I went to the library for my engineering, and wound up guest-lecturing to a class of graduating engineers. Instead of a PhD, I won a world championship in an annual technology contest. However, I was never comfortable with the business world, and it didn't support my values, so I never got to regular manufacturing. I held a wide variety of "day jobs" to support my research, but they never lasted. I was not very easy to manage, just good at some things.

Well done! I'm suitably impressed. (sincerely)

Left school at 16 and got a job. When I was able to focus on things at school I did pretty well. Most of the time though I found it difficult, couldn't concentrate and by the last year had eating disorders, depression and was drinking heavily and taking other silly things. Which didn't help.

I love learning though and usually have a subject or 2 on the go that I am researching.

Would love to go to uni and get a degree

I always had a very high GPA and graduated high school and college with honors. I took mostly honors and AP classes in high school. I only struggled with classes and assignments that required math, artistic ability, creativity, or where the requirements for assignments and tests were not clearly defined (such as essay tests). I didn't get diagnosed until last year. Recently, I was not allowed to complete a student teaching internship because of my poor social skills, memory, and the fact that no one would clearly lay out what exactly I was expected to do. This was absolutely unfair and one of the few times my ASD has actually been a barrier to my education. Jobs are a different story. I have had real problems finding and keeping a job I like. When I took an IQ test I scored nearly in the "genius" range with verbal reasoning and far below average with all other areas. It explained a lot.

As an aspie who works as an office clerk

The single most vital trait needed for employment is probably executive function. The ability to see a task through from beginning to end in a timley manner without making mistakes.

No employer would hire someone who cannot do that as a minimum.

Ive seen those with special needs and intellectual disability in employment and they can all do that, even if its just cleanning or stacking boxes.

The employer is paying you by the hour so from their point of view they dont want people doing time wasting stimms or taking breaks because they find things overwhelming.

This is an obvious problem for many autistics obviously. Maybe the solution is home based work via internet fortunatly this sector is growing.

But back to me being able to mask has been vital in getting work when i was young, i was hired and fired from many jobs initally after college for more than 15 years as i found it hard to concentrate and pick things up. My lack of being social has also been frowned upon i belive and taken into account in the firing decision.

After a decade or so i trained my mind to pick things up beter making better notes in the training period, where before my mind would wander. This has been what has kept me in a job ever since.

Ive found it steadily harder over the years to maintain masking and adapting to change, being middle age im not sure how many years ill be able to keep this up.

I believe many aspies retire young for this reason maybe just after 50 as they just cant do it anymore.

Teaching is an art, not a science, so I'm not surprised that you were not given clear, exact expectations. An unusually aware tester might have told you to discover and exploit some of the unique opportunities that arise as children develop, or else explain why there were none when you were present. More likely, your associates were not really clear on what they were doing, but hoping to recognize a kindred spirit. There may also have been a major conflict between real teaching and the administration's opinions about how to proceed, inhibiting communication. Sadly, there is also a very good chance that everyone was suffering from Dunning-Kruger syndrome, and would gang up to reject anyone who might show them up.

I'm an office worker, too....have been for 40 years.

I always have to find "my way" of doing things. I don't respond well to people who insist there is only "one way" of doing things. After a while, my supervisors learned to leave me alone.

It's results that count....not the methodology used to obtain those results.

The skill of masking can be very valuable in the workplace if you look at it from another angle.
If you deal with older people with good careers they acquire a lot of jargon associated with their employment and life experience.

The skill of guessing what those people really want can be very useful.

That works for repetitive manual jobs, too. I'm not quick with my fingers, but if work is boring, I'm thinking up ways to speed it up with jigs and other production tricks. Once, I had a contract to make and install some parts. They were hard to install, so I spent a couple of days making custom clamps. They let me do as much as two guys had the previous year without hurrying.

Ya gotta know what you are doing, though. A friend of mine was hired to build some sheds, and saw a way to save on the material. He hadn't realised that it was specified to let the sheds be moved to where they were wanted. Sometimes, a job is a loss except for the education, but that sure is better odds than paying for school.