Asperger's and Autism Differences?
29 Apr 2005, 7:00 pm
1)...The Question!
How do you percieve the difference
between Aspergers and autism(LFA & HFA)?
2)...Comments by Ghosthunter!
I like to know as much as possible about
diagnosing Dyslexia instead of Asperger.
A friend of mine is diagnoses with Dyslexia
but believes she may have Asperger
instead - or in addition. Dyslexia is a disorder
that causes errors in the visual recognition of
letters and words. I person with dyslexia
has difficulty reading sentences on a page.
Dysgraphia is a motor scheduling disorder
that causes errors in writing. A person with
dysgraphia may know how to spell a word
verbally but get it wrong when writing it down.
People with dysgraphia tend to hold the pencil
in a peculiar manner and have poor legibility.
Asperger's Syndrome is a collection of traits that
occur in groups. The most common relevant trait
would be poor prosody. A person with AS may be
able to read and write words on paper but not
understand their meaning or nuance when heard
verbally. This leads to social awkwardness as
verbal inflection is often used to convey as much
meaning as the words themselves (such as when
using inflection to indicate sarcasm). Conversely,
a person with AS may also have some difficulty
understanding written text -- perhaps he or she
can read the text both silently or aloud, but then
be unable to explain what was meant.
All three disorders can occur independently or in
combination.
This statement got me to think about the subtle
differences in LFA, HFA and Aspergers Syndrome.
For example, When I was 28 I would say
something, repeat it, and say "translation is..."
regarding the made statement made, or with
these same roleplayers, I couldn't adlib something
without doing a Spock translation(say-repeat-translate).
I was later perusing the ads that make 20¢ per once
clicked to help out Alex. Here is a ad I found!
• to help children with autism learn how to fully
participate in the typical world.
•Our textbooks build necessary language skills
as they teach academics to children with autism
1)...through photos
2)...hands-on activities
3)...topic used for such techniques!
mathematics
geography
science
social studies
on Individualized Education Program (IEP)
target Goal=
Everything is included to give a child with
autism education in basic academics.
I then remembered how I got my G.E.D. I
first started with a Scottish Coin study and
drew the B-Sides, memorized their pictorial
language, heraldic language, THEN read the
books on the topic of UK history.
I took this pictorial step one step further...
I dissected psychology through a pictoral,
then notetaking practice using a step by step
approach and created cartoons and art
(just like the Scot's Coin Tarot) to grasp
psychology, and the topic I used was
Parapyschology, or the investigation of
how the mind influences, percieves their
envirement. You can say it is about
E.S.P and such, but go deeper it was about
how we think and percieve.
After a series of cartoons, notes,
resources found(1890's mind studies to
1950 mind studies) I moved onto math
since I was good at reading and grasping
most texts.
then came the biggest challenge,Math.
I got a college text on Elementary Algebra
and read, practiced chapter by chapter,
and after each successive chapter I repeat
visual familarity by starting back.
Chapter 1-1
...repeat!
Chapter 1-2,
...repeat!
Chapter 1-3,
...repeat and so forth.
The end result was I got my G.E.D at 31.
I know this is how I see autism!.
Asperger's is foreign to me and their
may lie the fact that when I write, I am
methodical, and perhaps you don't drasp
the imagery?
I thankyou for your input in this idea of the subtle
differences between Asperger's and LFA & HFA
Sincerely,
Ghosthunter
3)...The Question Repeated!
How do you percieve the difference
between Aspergers and autism(LFA & HFA)?
29 Apr 2005, 8:12 pm
I have heard the professional rumour that all of Hans Asperger's patients he studied for his hallmark second doctoral thesis on Autistic Psychopathy or Aspergers Syndrome as it's obviously known today, if his subjects would be dx today in the US would all be dx with HFA according to the DSM criteria.
Although I have read this in some books, this was merely stated and I am unsure where such information was gleaned because in his translated paper, there is no evidence for this. So, I rather wonder...
Anyways. In short, the only difference I think is not what the autie ends up being and perhaps not even how they function, but simply of the early delay in Autism, which eventually is just elevated to Autistic Disorder, High-Functioning for those who do not have Mental Retardation. There are some differences I have read between AS and HFA in that ASers tend to have a higher Verbal IQ than Performance whereas HFA is supposed to be the opposite. But I have spoken with some HFAers and this isn't necessarily so for them. Thus, I wonder how accurate this generalization is.
I don't think there is really an inordinate amount of differences except for in those first fews years.
But in the end, both disorders are treated the same (as in treatments such as behavioral therapy, etc.).
_________________
My Science blog, Science Over a Cuppa - http://insolemexumbra.wordpress.com/
My partner's autism science blog, Cortical Chauvinism - http://corticalchauvinism.wordpress.com/
29 Apr 2005, 9:40 pm
Joined: Apr 24, 2005
Posts: 40
Location: St. Louis
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:12 am
Post subject: ...
-------------------------------
I have heard the professional rumour
that all of Hans Asperger's patients he
studied for his hallmark second doctoral
thesis on Autistic Psychopathy or Aspergers
Syndrome as it's obviously known today,
if his subjects would be dx today in the US
would all be dx with HFA according to the DSM
criteria.
I find this interesting since there is suppose
to be this autistic "heldback" gap? I am not
sure if this is applicable until the 1960's?
Joined: Apr 24, 2005
Posts: 40
Location: St. Louis
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:12 am
In short, the only difference I think is not what
the autie ends up being and perhaps not even
how they function, but simply of the early delay
in Autism, which eventually is just elevated to
Autistic Disorder, High-Functioning for those who
do not have Mental Retardation.
Sounds simple enough!
Joined: Apr 24, 2005
Posts: 40
Location: St. Louis
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:12 am
There are some differences I have read
between AS and HFA in that ASers tend
to have a higher Verbal IQ than Performance
whereas HFA is supposed to be the opposite.
But I have spoken with some HFAers and this
isn't necessarily so for them. Thus, I wonder
how accurate this generalization is.
This may or not be true? I do know that I
write very descriptive and that would imply
a reading, but a non-verbal expressed form.
See my example. The AS'ers tend to not
grasp my words and require clarification.
• HFA @ higher performance,
lesser communication?
•AS @better communication(verbal expression)
and lesser written, and or performance?
Hmmm? Intriguing Captain!
Joined: Apr 24, 2005
Posts: 40
Location: St. Louis
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:12 am
But in the end, both disorders are treated the
same (as in treatments such as behavioral therapy, etc.).
This is the only part that makes some solid
sense?
Hmmmm?
29 Apr 2005, 11:51 pm
ohhh I dunno, GH, you're the only HFA I'm aware of on this site. The only other I have some familiarity with is Temple Grandin who I've seen at a lecture tour and I've read some of her writings.
I would say possibly that she seemed to me more 'obviously' autistic. She would not 'pass for normal' in the way a lot of AS people can (in superficial contact I mean). I know she attended a special school and had tutors, whereas AS people often go to mainstream schools, where they are perceived as odd or shy, but don't have uh too many problems with the school work (I'm generalising, I know there are different experiences).
That's all I can think of for now...
30 Apr 2005, 6:15 am
Hm.. you PMed this to me, so I guess that means I should reply. Is that right?
I am not sure what to say, really. Clinically speaking, autism is diagnosed when language skills are delayed, and AS is diagnosed when they aren't. Ghosthunter, I must say that you do stand out a bit on this site, since you are one of the very few high-functioning autistics (and the only one that posts regularly). The way that you communicate seems different than the way many aspies seem to. Your writing is fluid, and somewhat poetic. At times difficult to comprehend, and at times rather interesting. The aspies here seem to be more straightforward in their writing. I, myself, know I tend to get into more of a "Ghosthunter" type of writing mode when I am trying to explain something about emotions, which can be foriegn and confusing to me, so I tend to think of them in imagery or in physical sensation.
I knew a girl with HFA in high school, she was my friend in my gym class. She did not seem to have problems communicating, though yes, I would say she did seem more outwardly autistic than I think many aspies may (I'm not sure, though, as I do not know if I have met any aspies in real life). She had quite a sense of humor, and was fun to be around. From what she told me about herself, it sounded like she also had language delays and problems with self-help skills at a young age, but came a long way in her improvement.
What I am trying to say is that I believe a lot depends on the individual. Where you were in terms of development when you were diagnosed tends to be the deciding factor of whether you are HFA or AS. But those people can grow, and so I do not think the division is as clear as clinicians seem to suggest it is.
30 Apr 2005, 6:17 am
Danlo visits here also, although lately I think he's avoiding us because of an incident in the chat room.
I have never been able to pass for "normal", but at the same time most people aren't sure what exactly is different about me. I think part of the problem is that people are always looking for that "one obvious thing" that's different, and get confused when faced with evidence of two or more deviances, particularly if there are subtle contradictions involved. The other issue is that the stereotypes promoted by mass media make it harder for people to recognize autism because they are looking for a very narrowly defined set of traits. The media stories tend to have "pity the parents" and "save the children" as dominant themes and therefore avoid publicizing the fact that many people with autism are integrated into society, hold a job, drive a car, etc. even though many of us were never diagnosed or treated when we were young.
_________________
What would Flying Spaghetti Monster do?
30 Apr 2005, 8:59 am
What an interesting thread! Thanks for starting it, GH.
VERY, VERY true! I think most people, myself included, are embarrasingly uneducated about autism.
[quote'The media stories tend to have "pity the parents" and "save the children" as dominant themes and therefore avoid publicizing the fact that many people with autism are integrated into society, hold a job, drive a car, etc. even though many of us were never diagnosed or treated when we were young.[/quote]
I agree that those are the stories I see. I don't think its a case of avoiding stories about integration as much as lack of knowledge. When NT people, including reporters, think "autism" they think LFA. They don't even find out about HFA or AS or PDD-NOS because they are not looking for it--they can't reseach and write about something they don't know exists. Plus, quite frankly, a functioning adult just isn't as interesting to write about as a struggling child or a distrot parent.
My son can pass but people think him a bit odd. Again, I think it comes down to lack or knowledge. Since he's obviously not LFA, they lack knowlegde to say, oh yeah, maybe AS.
[quote=Civit to GH]The way that you communicate seems different than the way many aspies seem to Your writing is fluid, and somewhat poetic. At times difficult to comprehend, and at times rather interesting. The aspies here seem to be more straightforward in their writing. I, myself, know I tend to get into more of a "Ghosthunter" type of writing mode when I am trying to explain something about emotions, which can be foriegn and confusing to me, so I tend to think of them in imagery or in physical sensation. [/quote]
Interesting insight! My son's communication is very staightforward unless descibing confict with others, an area very difficult for him. Then it is more poetic. I wonder if this is a trend, if other ASD'er feel the same way.
On another board I follow a gentleman who is self-described as HFA posts fequently. His writing tends to be more "aspie" like. I wonder if that might be because its a very narrow board and he is very confortable with the subject matter, if he dx'ed himself as HFA and maybe he's not, or if that is simply the way he communicates.
BeeBee
30 Apr 2005, 9:38 am
I think the whole discussion is moot, personally. I think that there is really no such discreet condition as "autism" or "aspergers" or whatever - everybody who suffers from a condition that can be ring-fenced into either category is, it seems, suffering from a condition unique to themselves only in reality. "HFA" and "AS" and whatever else are just neat and tidy, but also incredibly variable and ill-defined, boxes in which to stick people in. I think its an irrelevance whatever we "officially" have - I refer to myself as being AS as a badge of convenience only, as its the neatest and simplest way to refer to my own set of circumstances. In 20 years time once psychotherapy has matured a little more in this area, all of the current spectrum "definitions" will have been replaced and sub-divided into potentially dozens of smaller categories that we will all, similarly uncomfortably, be shoe-horned into instead. We shall see.....
_________________
"Heeeeeeeeeeeeere's Johnny!"
30 Apr 2005, 10:03 am
BeeBee said
It is interesting you say this, because back in early March I think it was, NBC had an entire week or so devoted to Autism. At the time, some statistics had come out saying that 1/167 children have an Autistic Spectrum Disorder in the US. However, NBC was just calling it "Autism" and only showing kids with Autistic Disorder throughout the entire week. As I watched and recorded the segments, having not read about that statistic at the time, I wondered whether in actuality the figure referred to the entire Spectrum and not solely to Autistic Disorder.
Afterwards I found it listed online on a site and my suspicions were correct: the ENTIRE Spectrum.
Now in one way, I thought this either a bit careless or even devious, because the segments actually made it appear as though Autistic Disorder was totally out of control. And granted, it's higher than people want, but NOT 1/167 kids have Autistic Disorder.
And I thought that a bit careless of them. It felt as though it was an attempt to create a panic. And I think there will be more attention paid to ASDs in general perhaps because of NBC's role, but it was completely false reporting despite any positive outcomes.
_________________
My Science blog, Science Over a Cuppa - http://insolemexumbra.wordpress.com/
My partner's autism science blog, Cortical Chauvinism - http://corticalchauvinism.wordpress.com/
30 Apr 2005, 12:51 pm
Like most statistics, that one's probably wrong. I got to a school of 1800, and I'm one of maybe two or three people who have anything in the spectrum. I say two or three because I've only met a few kids in the ESE program, but not all. I'm mainstream and don't see anyone else like myself.
As for the difference between AS/HFA, I really have nothing good to go on until I meet people of both AS/HFA in real life so I can find a difference. Otherwise, I can only say that it might have something to do with communication style.
_________________
Hello.
30 Apr 2005, 4:30 pm
Scape! Scape! I rake at the clues one at a time!
it, GH.
I say thanks for responding to this clue searching.
You have to love a mystery!
&
Here is the root clue!
I like to know as much as possible about
diagnosing Dyslexia instead of Asperger.
A friend of mine is diagnoses with Dyslexia
but believes she may have Asperger
instead - or in addition. Dyslexia is a disorder
that causes errors in the visual recognition of
letters and words. I person with dyslexia
has difficulty reading sentences on a page.
Dysgraphia is a motor scheduling disorder
that causes errors in writing. A person with
dysgraphia may know how to spell a word
verbally but get it wrong when writing it down.
People with dysgraphia tend to hold the pencil
in a peculiar manner and have poor legibility.
Asperger's Syndrome is a collection of traits that
occur in groups. The most common relevant trait
would be poor prosody. A person with AS may be
able to read and write words on paper but not
understand their meaning or nuance when heard
verbally. This leads to social awkwardness as
verbal inflection is often used to convey as much
meaning as the words themselves (such as when
using inflection to indicate sarcasm). Conversely,
a person with AS may also have some difficulty
understanding written text -- perhaps he or she
can read the text both silently or aloud, but then
be unable to explain what was meant.
All three disorders can occur independently or in
combination.
From Ghosthunter...
This statement got me to think about the subtle
differences in LFA, HFA and Aspergers Syndrome.
For example, When I was 28 I would say
something, repeat it, and say "translation is..."
regarding the made statement made, or with
these same roleplayers, I couldn't adlib something
without doing a Spock translation(say-repeat-translate).
I was later perusing the ads that make 20¢ per once
clicked to help out Alex. Here is a ad I found!
Our mission at Labosh Publishing wrote:
• to help children with autism learn how to fully
participate in the typical world.
•Our textbooks build necessary language skills
as they teach academics to children with autism
1)...through photos
2)...hands-on activities
3)...topic used for such techniques!
mathematics
geography
science
social studies
on Individualized Education Program (IEP)
target Goal=
Everything is included to give a child with
autism education in basic academics.
self-described as HFA posts fequently. His writing
tends to be more "aspie" like. I wonder if that
might be because its a very narrow board and
he is very confortable with the subject matter,
if he dx'ed himself as HFA and maybe he's not,
or if that is simply the way he communicates.
Since I haven't meet face to face any other
HFA's I can't read too much into this except
a basic philosophy..."If it smells like a cat,
look similar to a cat, and walks like a cat,
unless otherwise proven you have to assume
it is a cat unless you pet it and see it's actual
behavior", and the moral is we will assume
he is AS since he seems to fall into this description.
It is interesting that you would take note on
such a minuote detail about someone?
Most Fascinating,Captain?
Sincerely,
Ghosthunter
in their writing. I, myself, know I tend to get into
more of a "Ghosthunter" type of writing mode when
I am trying to explain something about emotions,
which can be foriegn and confusing to me, so I tend
to think of them in imagery or in physical sensation.
This does present a solid difference, one is
assimulated behavior for coping purposes and
the the other(HFA) seems to be a natural
pictorial, vocal, visual-spatial learned skill
kept to heart and mind?
can be ring-fenced into either category is, it
seems, suffering from a condition unique to
themselves only in reality. "HFA" and "AS"
and whatever else are just neat and tidy, but
also incredibly variable and ill-defined, boxes
in which to stick people in.
Very solid point in a AS/HFA view, BUT...
we live in a NT world and live by alot
of NT perspective rules of conduct and
labels. Remeber my "Handful of Spoons"
disaster, and the point was I lumped all boxes
as one, or a box(HFA style), and the NT
world saw a "CARTON of cigarettes, a small
SHOE box, a large STORAGE box, ect..."
Hmmm? Keptin' we have Klingons on are left aft!
Fire Checkov! (zapp) and the NT's left but left
behind something of themselves in ourselves.
have nothing good to go on until I meet people
of both AS/HFA in real life so I can find a difference.
Otherwise, I can only say that it might have
something to do with communication style.
This is why I SUBLTLY say a WrongPlanet Convention.
Hmmmm?
on this site, since you are one of the very few high-
functioning autistics (and the only one that posts
regularly). The way that you communicate seems
different than the way many aspies seem to. Your
writing is fluid, and somewhat poetic. At times difficult
to comprehend, and at times rather interesting. The aspies
here seem to be more straightforward in their writing.
Now that I am in #500 club I have used some
modified tricks to incorporate this "Frosting"
wording, and delicately balance it with "Wheat"
wording. I don't want to lose my character, nor
my friends on WrongPlanet, so I hope I am
doing a good job at feeding the AS(wheat) audience
as well as expressing the HFA(Frosting) audience
that find it intriguing. I say thanks for your
complement for expressing my durablity in
adapting to even the worst of things, and you guys
have helped me more rapidly try improve techniques.
Sincerely,
Ghosthunter
P.S.....
let the Forum continue since I got off my soap box,
and God-Bless!
30 Apr 2005, 5:16 pm
I think in the end, despite whatever differences exist between the two disorders, they are more alike than different.
_________________
My Science blog, Science Over a Cuppa - http://insolemexumbra.wordpress.com/
My partner's autism science blog, Cortical Chauvinism - http://corticalchauvinism.wordpress.com/
01 May 2005, 12:01 pm
This is an abstract I copied from The Archives of General Psychiatry. Quite interesting. Would have liked to read the full text (had to pay for it though).
Investigation of Neuroanatomical Differences Between Autism and Asperger Syndrome
Linda J. Lotspeich, MD; Hower Kwon, MD; Cynthia M. Schumann, BS; Susanna L. Fryer, BA; Beth L. Goodlin-Jones, PhD; Michael H. Buonocore, PhD; Cathy R. Lammers, MD; David G. Amaral, PhD; Allan L. Reiss, MD
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2004;61:291-298.
ABSTRACT:
Background Autism and Asperger syndrome (ASP) are neurobiological conditions with overlapping behavioral symptoms and of unknown etiologies. Results from previous autism neuroimaging studies have been difficult to replicate, possibly owing to site differences in subject samples, scanning procedures, and image-processing methods. We sought (1) to determine whether low-functioning autism (LFA; IQ<70), high-functioning autism (HFA; IQ>=70), and ASP constitute distinct biological entities as evidenced by neuroanatomical measures, and (2) to assess for intersite differences.
Methods Case-control study examining coronally oriented 124-section spoiled gradient echo images acquired on 3 magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) systems, and processed by BrainImage 5.X. Participants were recruited and underwent scanning at 2 academic medicine departments. Participants included 4 age-matched groups of volunteer boys aged 7.8 to 17.9 years (13 patients with LFA, 18 with HFA, 21 with ASP, and 21 control subjects), and 3 volunteer adults for neuroimaging reliability. Main outcome measures included volumetric measures of total, white, and gray matter for cerebral and cerebellar tissues.
Results Intersite differences were seen for subject age, IQ, and cerebellum measures. Cerebral gray matter volume was enlarged in both HFA and LFA compared with controls (P = .009 and P = .04, respectively). Cerebral gray matter volume in ASP was intermediate between that of HFA and controls, but nonsignificant. Exploratory analyses revealed a negative correlation between cerebral gray matter volume and performance IQ within HFA but not ASP. A positive correlation between cerebral white matter volume and performance IQ was observed within ASP but not HFA.
Conclusions Lack of replication between previous autism MRI studies could be due to intersite differences in MRI systems and subjects' age and IQ. Cerebral gray tissue findings suggest that ASP is on the mild end of the autism spectrum. However, exploratory assessments of brain-IQ relationships reveal differences between HFA and ASP, indicating that these conditions may be neurodevelopmentally different when patterns of multiple measures are examined. Further investigations of brain-behavior relationships are indicated to confirm these findings.
_________________
My Science blog, Science Over a Cuppa - http://insolemexumbra.wordpress.com/
My partner's autism science blog, Cortical Chauvinism - http://corticalchauvinism.wordpress.com/
01 May 2005, 2:16 pm
Fascinating article, Sophist, I'd like to read the study in full text too.
Just to clarify, grey matter is the material in the brain where thought processes take place, and white matter is the material that carries connections between different parts of the brain.
I would love to see a more detailed MRI study which presents the same tasks to ASP and HFA groups and then compares which areas of the brain are active in each group. For instance, carrying out a short conversation, reading a passage of text, doing a math problem, recognizing a face, recognizing emotional expression, etc. I suspect that there would be some significant differences between ASP's and HFA's, and between both and NT's.
I agree that the DSM-IV criteria are in sore need of revision. Right now, LFA, HFA and ASP seem to be categorized by the ability to function in society, with LFA being the most impaired and ASP being the least. I think it would be more accurate to divide up the spectrum by the way one processes information. The classic image of an Aspie is a person who relies on logic, facts, and literal meaning, sees the part before the whole, and has trouble recognizing and/or expressing emotion. The classic Autie relies on pattern and intuition, finds unusual ways of learning (like Ghosthunter's pictoral approach), and communicates more through metaphor and imagery than straightforward logic. (Is this an accurate summary, people, or am I missing things?)
Both can have lower and higher degrees of functioning. I know the speech delay is considered the key difference between ASP and HFA but I wonder if that simplifies the issue too much. How much is a speech delay dependent on overall IQ and how much on autism-related sensory issues? Right now one of the official criteria of Asperger's is an average to high IQ, but to me that seems suspiciously like saying autism is necessarily correlated with mental retardation, when they are two entirely separate issues.
Oh and I believe Elfman is also HFA.
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