etiquette and social study

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how do you learn social skills?

I've taken a lot of time and made great pains to socialize with others but I'm coming to the conclusion that these skills most other people gain naturally will not come to me through absorption.
Formal manners have been easy for me, I've read many books on etiquette, and formal manners are now almost a default for me, but these manners often are out of place or antiquated in everyday life.

everything I've found in the way of social education is either aimed at children (therefore limited, though I must begrudgingly acknowledged useful) or those who are intellectually impaired in the classic sense, which is usually designed for those with autism and/or a low IQ and is both both limited, and profoundly patronizing. I can understand social custom I just can't see them , even when I'm looking right at it.

All I want is a guide book that set's out human behavior in black and white

You could get the guide book.

But you will, with exposure and making mistakes, learn social skills through experience.

You just have to "put yourself out there."

Yes, you will make mistakes. You will make a fool out of yourself. The key is to reflect WHY you made a fool of yourself, and try to not to repeat it again. It would help if you had a friend who could help you with this.

The Wrong Planet owner, Alex, says he gained his social knowledge by watching movies and television. Because I come from a multi-generational cinema family, I did too. But, mine, at least, was unintentional. I don't know if Alex intended his knowledge or if it was accidental like mine. Some cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) relies on movie and television scenes to teach social-interaction skills.

Anyway, these days, I would warn individuals seeking that kind of knowledge to choose their movies and television "studies" carefully. My selection included 1960s and 1970s movies and television programs, and, even then, I preferred those which were more realistic and less extreme examples such as comedies, horror and many fantasies. For the sake of learning about real-life social interactions, I believe that too many movies and television programs produced today could be worse than doing nothing.

Of course, this is just one technique. I would advocate for combining it with some reading about CBT strategies and autobiographies by John Elder Robison, Temple Grandin and others.

but kraftie I do put myself out there all the time, I go to parties, out to lunch with people etc etc
when i make a fool of myself I dont realize, and when I do realize I can't work out why.

this is why I say that I'm not learning through absorption, this laise-faire idea that learning will happen naturally is why as an adult I'm still socially inept, in fact i would go as far as to say that inability to absorb social skills is the core of aspergers.

I do watch a lot of films though, and this has helped to a degree .

I think that's true, to a certain extent....but also I think, in some Aspies, that "absorbing social skills" might come a bit more slowly than in non-Aspies. It certainly took me a while to have become "a little below the average" in social skills.

In sum, I don't believe the total and absolute "inability" to absorb social skills is part and parcel of being an Aspie. I believe, at least in some, that it merely comes more slowly.

When I was younger, I really didn't have "social skills"--but I came across as sincere and naïve. I made a concerted effort not to make mistakes; this caused me to be seen by some as a "robot," especially by my mother's boyfriend, who actually called me a "robot."

Go with the movie idea; it seems to be working for you as this point.

Seconded. In my youth I made some spectacular social gaffes by that route. There must be movies out there that a lot could be learned from though. Difficult to recommend anything in particular, as so much depends on the particular culture you want to fit in with.

I've always found it much easier to deal with people one-to-one, it keeps things a lot simpler. Even in group situations, I tend to look for dialogue with what seems to be the most suitable individual, and pretty much ignore the rest. I used to have a silly ambition of being the life and soul of the party, until I realised I was just trying to prove a point, that I could do it. What I did notice was that even after my greatest social achievements (which were never all that marvellous), it wasn't any easier next time I tried the same trick. I think some of the social limitations of Aspies are quite hard limits, e.g. I don't think I'll ever be able to pick out one person's words against a background of talking at a large gathering.

For me it's had to be a very gradual process of trial and error over 5 decades, and I still have some way to go even to achieve my quite modest remaining social ambitions. I think the ambitions have to be kept realistic. Studying psychology was helpful. Studying real people was helpful too, and reflecting on my social interactions. Also I think it's worth putting a lot of effort into trying to fathom their feelings, and one's own. Without that, I don't think anybody would get very far with people.

Years ago I noticed this guy talking to one person, and I and another couple of folks moved a little closer, interested in the talking. He immediately changed his eye contact so that he looked at each of us in turn as he finished what he was saying, which made me feel included, and it made me like him. He must have been an NT with a good interpersonal style. I think it's good to try to do little gestures like that.

It's also important not to automatically blame yourself when a social thing doesn't work out well. A lot of people out there have issues of their own, and simple incompatibility can often scupper things. Personally I'm content to be "minority appeal," in fact I prefer it that way.

Approach it like a foreign language?

What I mean is, get some books, find at least one willing "translator," immerse yourself to exercise whatever you've learned or to test your knowledge, and hope for the best.

I'm not sure what books would be useful besides body language and etiquette books. Those have helped me.

Depending on your gender, age, and location, you may also find MTV's Girl Code or Guy Code useful.

Is it possible to take a class on social skills? (I've been wanting to find one for adults.)

Maybe approach it like a "foreign language"---though it's really not so "foreign" once one gets experience.

Hate to rain on the parade, but their value system looks completely lame to me. It's like they never heard of respect or social grace. Even the students I've observed here aren't that coarse. Just my opinion.

It is pretty lame. But they do seem to be offering honest thoughts about things, even if not their own, and they do give explanations for various social situations. I find it helpful. It gives me a bit of insight sometimes.

My question is, to what "social" skills are society entitled to require. How much exactitude is it reasonable and fair to demand of anybody in such skills that are usually nothing more than arbitrary fashion? One of the features of narcissistic personality disorder in DSM 4 is a sense of entitlement for automatic compliance with behaviors that one must guess correctly are required. If the high standards of classical etiquette and decorum that can be studied from movies are not good enough, perhaps because their punctilio and alembication does not match ever in flux style, how dare society object.
Solely because the collective known as society has power, its capricious whims are our commands, but it does not publish these whims that are called social skills the way classical systems of etiquette are in etiquette books. We are required to be sensitive to the impossible to predict feelings of people who think in ways that are alien to us, but if society is abusive to our needs to be spared sensory torments, society reacts, "To Hell with you, I'll play my music that you can't stand as loud as I want and I'll smoke wherever I want, just to show you who is boss."
When it comes right down to it, like all bullies, those who have power because they are in the majority can dish it out but can't take it.
That is why I limit my efforts to what is logical and fair in what "social skills" I am willing to attempt.

The only "social skill" I require is to be treated like one wants to be treated.

I concur with your analysis. They wouldn't know "fair" or "logical" if it was branded into their foreheads and they lived in a house of mirrors.

^
I concur too. It's the oppression of the minority by the majority, and that's why I think Aspies who try hard to fit in with this "society" thing are likely to be making a rod for their own backs. It's very laudable that they want to try that hard, but I don't give much for their chances of getting accepted as equals, unless they happen to stumble on an uncommonly fair-minded society.

Agreed.

Ultimately, many NTs are liars.....they claim to accept others differences and individuality yet they judge, censure and marginalize anyone who doesn't precisely conform.

This is why most ppl with ASD try so hard to 'pass'. Of course some simply cannot 'pass' no matter how hard they try.