Debating vs Relating

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Have you ever had the feeling that people in general do not want to be subject to rationality and debate?

Debater: 2 + 2 = 4 because 4 = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = (1 + 1) + (1 + 1) = 2 + 2 , also, do not cause harm in others because you would not want harm done to you.
Relater: I love 2 harms... it is sooo much fun!
Debater: Uhhhh, glad you love certain things, but that is not germane to the topic at hand.
Relater: Can I talk to someone else (ignore debater).
Debater: (~ frustration ~)

What is your take? Any relaters that are debater haters on here? Debaters who never get your cheese (audience compliance of even basic arguments). What is going on with this?

My suggestion is, go to a forum (online or IRL) where people explicitly want to debate these things and where the rules explicitly support this.

Because yes, most people are not interested in this sort of rational discussion going strictly by the logical rules of debating.

That's a fact of life and I don't mind that. Not everyone has to be interested in what you are interested in. That is, if you look at rational debate as an interest like any other interest. (I realize it's also a worldview and a way of living life.)

What did get me shocked though was when I went onto a forum that was supposedly about a topic that needs deep (and yes, rational) analysis and many people could not tolerate being asked even one deeper question while I was trying to learn about their thoughts. They felt I was trying to question their current understanding in a malicious way or something.

So yeah, select the talking partner carefully and the place (forum, etc) should explicitly support what you are looking for. This is where I am at with answering my own similar questions. (Though mine is slightly different from your issue, I share some of the problem with you.)

The idea of "trying to learn about their thoughts" might have been the deal breaker there, but yes, many people seem to believe anything that makes them think a bit is an offense...

"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think..." --Don Marquis

That matter of rational analysis, discussion and even civil debate -- I refuse combative debate where people attack each other -- is on my mind a lot, and I believe many people today have no interest in it or desire for it.

Agreed, that was the deal breaker lol

Yeah, ok, so it looks like you are bothered by most people being so different with not being interested in this. I don't know how to help with that though :/ I really hope you find a good place for yourself though where you can be yourself with the debating stuff if you haven't yet.

At a guess I'd say some people may dislike debating as they believe their opinion is the right one and they don't want to be told otherwise, or made to question it?

I can accept someone else may have a point but only if I find myself agreeing with it. I can get frustrated pretty easily as I guess I like to be right?

I like discussing deeper issues but prefer to do so with likeminded people. That doesn't mean I don't want to hear new information and would refuse to consider it, but I don't particularly enjoy debate... unless I win or am confident I'm right

There'll be other factors depending on the person and topic though, there always is.

Sounds like you have the typical approach yah. I also like to be right, HOWEVER I'm willing to consider new data - though this is not done by too quickly changing conclusions, I'm more definite and thorough than that - and my self-esteem is not affected by having to argue points.

I don't see why you or certain other people have the need to link this to self-esteem personally. For me it's an impersonal thing. And, I find it even less sensible when some of these people who take it personally try to blame their frustration on me, just because they have less of a tolerance of their own internal cognitive dissonance.

(Luckily not everyone does this with their frustration. Don't take this part as directed at you if it doesn't fit you.)

I love debating, I just have trouble in timed formats like in high school or college. I was a Lincoln-Douglas debater but didnt do very well; I could rip a position apart with ease but communicating it in an eloquent manner on a verbal level was beyond my abilities.

Fundamentally, a debate is conceptual combat but too many blur the line between idea and person. Also, there seems to be too few that will question their opponent to find the weak premise in another's position or allow their own premises to be questioned. It is often assumptions being thrown against each other without actual damage to the foundations of either belief system.

"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire."
-Nietzsche in a letter to his Sister

It's the questioning side of a debate that is the greatest tool but it seems the least used or tolerated.

Yeah, you put it very well - many blur the line between idea and person.

I'm not into purely debating for the sake of debating, though. My goal is not to rip apart the other's position just l'art pour l'art. My goal is to develop better understanding and I dislike the debates that seem too random or go in too many directions or relativize everything too much by always bringing up a "what if" against every point being made. I'd definitely not have been on any debate team in school.

So, if you were to engage in an argument with me, you'd find it's hard to get me to change the foundations for my understanding. It is not impossible but it takes way more than a few silly and random "what if"'s to just try and rip apart everything without a real direction. It requires going really deep with things with a direction, instead. So when someone can argue in that manner, that can be great. The result is an actually improved understanding preferably on both sides.

I think it's subconscious on most people's parts. Having low self-esteem will often result in a tendency towards certain behaviours. Also, some people aren't very good at compartmentalising which can be frustrating to deal with.

Blaming the other person for their frustration is immature unless the person is themselves behaving inappropriately (making an ad hominem attack for example). Even then, the frustrated person should try and handle the situation calmly.

Sometimes I get frustrated because the other person isn't giving me a chance to speak or if I'm unable to formulate a cohherrent response quickly enough.

I took part in a panel debate just the other day as part of my course and I enjoyed it to a degree but became frustrated because I strongly disagreed with what was being said. I didn't let my frustration affect my ability to form a logical response.

I get frustrated debating with my partner as she makes a clapping noise with her hands, apparently it's to help her think but I find it aggressive and the superior academic tone she adopts irritates me.

Those above are just some personal examples. In the last one I did get quite annoyed because the debate was about autistic identity and labels and my NT partner getting dangerously close to advocating 'fixing' autistics amongst other things.

We are on the same page with that.




Ah, I wonder if I ever made anyone feel like they didn't have enough time to give their response. I pay attention to such cues IRL but online I tend to believe that I can just write while the other party can write too, no one stops them from doing so. I noticed some people might see this differently but this is unclear to me atm.




What did she advocate for example, with that idea of fixing autistics?

Tone - I don't know if she was intentionally adopting a "superior academic tone" there to make others feel inferior or anything like that. Did she get like, a PhD degree or what kind of environment does she come from?

As for the seeming aggressiveness, might just be excitement for her. I dunno, just throwing ideas around for this. I wouldn't know what her actual intentions are. So easy to misinterpret things like that, though.

I don't really debate online but if I did I'd wait for the other person's response. That can get tricky when it's multiple people though as the conversation can move so quickly and I find myself typing and by the time I send it most people are on a different point.

She has a relatively 'posh' english accent and she's currently doing her Master's degree so that's probably where it's coming from. I think the clapping is one of those 'i'm making a point' gestures but whatever the case I don't like it. It's not clapping her hand together but clapping one palm of the side of the other hand in a sharp, single motion.

In short, she was saying people on the spectrum shouldn't identify as 'autistic', and then went on to say they should learn to adapt their behaviour (or something to that extent... it was about learning to fit in with others)... I reckon the latter comes from her taking issue with her brother's rigid tendencies and the fact that last time he came to visit there was quite a bit of interpersonal conflict, a lot of which resulted from her refusal to accept what their mum and I were trying to explain to her about his autism.

It's funny as I'm certain she's at the very least on the BAP as she has a lot of traits.

I don't understand it when people like to ague about things just for the sake of arguing. I like relating to others, but I wouldn't want someone to pretend to agree either.

Some people think that I'm arguing with them when I wouldn't understand something or just be expressing an opinion.

Yeah, maybe it's overwhelming to some people, I just have a hard time paying attention to how much of a capacity for this each person would have if they don't let me know and if I can't read it from visible enough and unambiguous cues either.




Heh, that's funny yeah.

Actually, I can come off as "aggressive with superior academic tone", too, and I dunno if that's supposed to have anything to do with BAP. Is there anything else about her that you see as BAP traits?

And, did you ever try to tell her that you think she has BAP traits?

I have brought it up several times but doing so just annoys her as she doesn't want to consider the possibility. Listing all her possible traits would result in quite a lengthy post so I'll just list some examples;

1. She is probably more literal than I am, at least in our interactions. She doesn't always pick up on my joking. In fairness my delivery of a sarcastic/ joking comment is probably done with little inflection in these instances.
2. She's very systematic in her organisation.
3. She had a rule for numbers where there were 'boy numbers' and 'girl numbers'. This was when she was young but she says it persists now though she doesn't think about it... she says it's like a feeling?
4. She can come across as very blunt and direct and as I said, very academic.

As an aside, I've also been accused of adopting a superior, lecturing tone when thy hasn't been my intention.

Anyway, I'm aware this is all getting very off topic so I'll stop now.

OK I see. Btw, the 3rd one sounds like a form of synesthesia. I have similar "feelings" about numbers.

OK, yeah, let's stop the off topic.