Different way of thinking causes people to avoid us

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robnl
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22 Oct 2017, 6:30 pm

I am in my mid 40s. I am married with a son (adopted). My job is very challenging and we have a good income and excellent savings/investment. I have been seeing my therapist for 14 years. As I work my a** off to learn how to put people at ease and make them comfortable, I am finding that the fact that I think different will always cause 95% of people to actively work on avoiding me. Another 4.XX% will try to use me because it is so easy to them. The miniscule percentage left over will be people I can have a relationship with, but they are rightly concerned about how the rest of the people are going to affect them. I feel like I am in an impossible situation. I have invested an incredible amount of my life in understanding how to make people comfortable around me, but I cannot seem to break through the different way I think. I stopped pushing on people the way I think and just go about figuring out how to make them comfortable. I am waiting for them at some point to start asking about me after noticing through subtle hints that I don't really think like them, but they really never do. I am getting used to being uncomfortable, but it's hard. Just wondering if anyone else has this experience. It just seems so impossible, I have nearly thought of everything, yet it just seems so irreconcilably broken that people can't tap into the depths that I have to offer and am stuck in their neverending comfortableness that they never seem to grow tired of.



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22 Oct 2017, 7:03 pm

robnl wrote:
I am waiting for them at some point to start asking about me after noticing through subtle hints that I don't really think like them, but they really never do.


I don't think subtle hints will ever work, or at least it'll be rare. People are fundamentally lazy, and NT's are just not motivated to explore people who are different. NTs also tend conformist, and conformists are definitely not motivated to look into a different way of thinking!

If you have a challenging job that brings in a good income, then I would say you're doing a good job at making people comfortable. But if you want friends, maybe you need to look somewhere new? I don't know what your interests are, but some social groups are much more tolerant of differences than others. Geekish groups, most typically, although there are considerable variations even there. Groups of sexually mixed fans of games or science fiction or comics that have a significant female contingent tend to socialize in the sense of getting to know each other personally; more strongly male groups like train spotters and RC plane fans and the like tend to be more about what brings them together and less about what makes individuals unique. In terms of non-geekish groups, it's more about the individuals meeting. For instance, some book clubs are very business like, some really narrow (everyone must like the same sort of books), and some very open to and appreciative of differences, and so on.

And I keep thinking that, if you're expending a lot of energy to make people comfortable, they may pick that up and so don't want to get personal? I'm not quite sure what I'm thinking. I guess if you're really making them comfortable, then they don't want to make waves by introducing differences, either because they like the comfort, or because they think comfort is your primary goal, and find differences uncomfortable. And at work, maybe comfort should be your primary goal, I dunno.



robnl
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22 Oct 2017, 7:20 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I forgot to say but more often than not, if the normal people pick up on that I think different, they go overboard with trying to out me. I have to very carefully navigate those situations and they seem to fester for long periods of time and you have to keep reassuring them that you are normal. I have to kindof come up with a persona and script out how a normal person thinks and respond with that. Basically, unless you are a certified genius, star, or have some official public position, you better respond with that you heard X and X from someone else and I am doing what every one else would do given that I have Y and Y in my life.



Esmerelda Weatherwax
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22 Oct 2017, 7:28 pm

:? I wish I had something inspiring and uplifting to post as a response, but all I can do is validate your experience, because mine has been similar.

During my working life, many people with whom I worked were uncomfortable around me because I was *not* easily fooled, and because I was good at prognostication. If someone had a really lousy idea that was going to fail spectacularly and damage innocent people's careers, I'd see it far in advance - and what with pattern recognition and all, I was right about 100% of the time. I'd ask tactful, thoughtful questions rather than being blunt about my concerns, but nothing worked, and I don't think anything would ever have worked. This was about egos, not about good ideas.(Did people in these places notice that I was a verrry good predictor? Yes. Did they, in consequence, learn that it might be a good idea to listen to me? No.)

I was repeatedly amazed at how much success in NT-world seemed to be driven by deception - of oneself or others. Still am, honestly. The biggest deception is that there are rational decisionmaking processes in business and in management. Alas. From what I've observed, it is almost all ego driven. I used to use the term "anti-learning" to describe it, it was so bad.

How I survived was twofold: I honed my skills and worked in an area that aligned with my best talents and special interests - and I watched out for "good ones" (i.e., less ego-driven) and did what I could to nurture and protect them. (That will not provide *you* with reciprocal protection or nurturance, but it might benefit the next generation of Aspies; meanwhile, you know you're "doing good", which does insulate against burnout.)

Perhaps threefold: I'm female, and apparently NTs didn't associate "autism" or "aspie" with adult females until fairly recently.

Anyway, what you're seeing is what is there, and I think this is something that only time and increased public, i.e., NT, awareness will modify.


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22 Oct 2017, 9:52 pm

robnl wrote:
I am in my mid 40s. I am married with a son (adopted). My job is very challenging and we have a good income and excellent savings/investment. I have been seeing my therapist for 14 years. As I work my a** off to learn how to put people at ease and make them comfortable, I am finding that the fact that I think different will always cause 95% of people to actively work on avoiding me. Another 4.XX% will try to use me because it is so easy to them. The miniscule percentage left over will be people I can have a relationship with, but they are rightly concerned about how the rest of the people are going to affect them. I feel like I am in an impossible situation. I have invested an incredible amount of my life in understanding how to make people comfortable around me, but I cannot seem to break through the different way I think. I stopped pushing on people the way I think and just go about figuring out how to make them comfortable. I am waiting for them at some point to start asking about me after noticing through subtle hints that I don't really think like them, but they really never do. I am getting used to being uncomfortable, but it's hard. Just wondering if anyone else has this experience. It just seems so impossible, I have nearly thought of everything, yet it just seems so irreconcilably broken that people can't tap into the depths that I have to offer and am stuck in their neverending comfortableness that they never seem to grow tired of.


I am not goth at all but I had a friend practically force me to go to a goth club once... surprisingly... I had fun desipte the painfully loud screamo music and flashing lights of death... but I had fun because everyone was so relaxed and accepting and they actually thought it was cool that I was autistic and they were super concerned if I was okay with the lights and music.. I think I'm going to go goth just so I have an excuse to hang out with them again... I've never been more accepted in my life... perhaps I belong with freaks. :mrgreen:


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22 Oct 2017, 9:54 pm

Esmerelda Weatherwax wrote:
:? I wish I had something inspiring and uplifting to post as a response, but all I can do is validate your experience, because mine has been similar.

During my working life, many people with whom I worked were uncomfortable around me because I was *not* easily fooled, and because I was good at prognostication. If someone had a really lousy idea that was going to fail spectacularly and damage innocent people's careers, I'd see it far in advance - and what with pattern recognition and all, I was right about 100% of the time. I'd ask tactful, thoughtful questions rather than being blunt about my concerns, but nothing worked, and I don't think anything would ever have worked. This was about egos, not about good ideas.(Did people in these places notice that I was a verrry good predictor? Yes. Did they, in consequence, learn that it might be a good idea to listen to me? No.)

I was repeatedly amazed at how much success in NT-world seemed to be driven by deception - of oneself or others. Still am, honestly. The biggest deception is that there are rational decisionmaking processes in business and in management. Alas. From what I've observed, it is almost all ego driven. I used to use the term "anti-learning" to describe it, it was so bad.

How I survived was twofold: I honed my skills and worked in an area that aligned with my best talents and special interests - and I watched out for "good ones" (i.e., less ego-driven) and did what I could to nurture and protect them. (That will not provide *you* with reciprocal protection or nurturance, but it might benefit the next generation of Aspies; meanwhile, you know you're "doing good", which does insulate against burnout.)

Perhaps threefold: I'm female, and apparently NTs didn't associate "autism" or "aspie" with adult females until fairly recently.

Anyway, what you're seeing is what is there, and I think this is something that only time and increased public, i.e., NT, awareness will modify.



This is totally off topic but when I imagine you reading I imagine you reading with professor McGonagall's voice from Harry Potter...

Carry on. :lol:


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Esmerelda Weatherwax
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23 Oct 2017, 10:29 am

^^ oh, if only! :-)


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23 Oct 2017, 10:43 am

“Granny’s implicit belief that everything should get out of her way extended to other witches, very tall trees and, on occasion, mountains.”

I've read extensively :D

Edit: I'm just a Granny Weatherwax fan. Please don't think I was being sarcastic or something, because I don't do sarcasm. I just thought that this post was possibly open to interpretation.


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Esmerelda Weatherwax
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23 Oct 2017, 10:53 am

^^ :-)

from Wikipedia: "The Trolls of the Ramtops call her "Aaoograha hoa" ("She Who Must Be Avoided) (Maskerade), the Dwarves call her "K'ez'rek d'b'duz" ("Go Around the Other Side of the Mountain"); (also Maskerade), and the Nac Mac Feegle call her "The Hag O' Hags" ("The High Witch").

... it's that different way of thinking. Wonderful what a clear set of goals will do for a girl :wink:

(edit in too: no worries. I took your meaning as intended even before you edited.

I encountered Granny when I was middle-aged and being slowly ostracized and marginalized at work for the twin crimes of intellect and femaleness, as far as I could determine (while also being worked to death because I was good at my job); so I figured, well, it looks as though I'm having Weatherwaxness thrust upon me. Might as well embrace it. There are worse fates.)


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"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people," said the man. "You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides."
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23 Oct 2017, 10:58 am

I find that the uncanny valley hypothesis gives a close to perfect representation of why NTs are uncomfortable around us:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley



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23 Oct 2017, 2:20 pm

robnl wrote:
Just wondering if anyone else has this experience.

Kind of. I haven't put much effort into making other people comfortable. My problem is the anger, frustration, resentment, hopelessness, and isolation caused by people assuming that they know what I think.

At this point I don't expect anyone to ask what you want people to ask because people seem to take for granted that people they come across think in more or less the same way.



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23 Oct 2017, 7:05 pm

I'm not sure that is our way of thinking is the reason you are having so much trouble. And we don't all think in the same way - far from it, as you will learn here!

Many of us are serious, thoughtful people. Some of us have serious facial expressions, rarely smiling unless we consciously remind ourselves to do so during our interactions with people. Ask your wife what expressions show on your face when you are interacting with people, and monitor it yourself to see if this is one factor affecting your communication.



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24 Oct 2017, 3:20 am

robnl wrote:
I am in my mid 40s. I am married with a son (adopted). My job is very challenging and we have a good income and excellent savings/investment. I have been seeing my therapist for 14 years. As I work my a** off to learn how to put people at ease and make them comfortable, I am finding that the fact that I think different will always cause 95% of people to actively work on avoiding me. Another 4.XX% will try to use me because it is so easy to them. The miniscule percentage left over will be people I can have a relationship with, but they are rightly concerned about how the rest of the people are going to affect them. I feel like I am in an impossible situation. I have invested an incredible amount of my life in understanding how to make people comfortable around me, but I cannot seem to break through the different way I think. I stopped pushing on people the way I think and just go about figuring out how to make them comfortable. I am waiting for them at some point to start asking about me after noticing through subtle hints that I don't really think like them, but they really never do. I am getting used to being uncomfortable, but it's hard. Just wondering if anyone else has this experience. It just seems so impossible, I have nearly thought of everything, yet it just seems so irreconcilably broken that people can't tap into the depths that I have to offer and am stuck in their neverending comfortableness that they never seem to grow tired of.


My friend I feel your pain intensely because I've gone through all of that myself in my 42 years. My diagnosis was only made recently but I have tried my hardest to try to make people more comfortable around me but as you said, they simply take steps to try and avoid me as well.

Being taken advantage of especially in workplace situations is another big problem for me too. I have tried to become more self-aware and more aware of dangerous situations but sensing danger is a fundamental flaw with autistics. Interpreting social cues and being aware of inappropriate things to say is something that I constantly stumble on. Once NTs figure this out then that's where their sadistic games with us begins.

I'm afraid my friend, that as ASDers we are both disabled and gifted persons and once NTs figure out one or the other they will avoid us regardless. I'm not sure there is a solution to this problem but it goes to the age-old thing with NTs - prejudice is universal no matter where you go in this world.


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24 Oct 2017, 3:24 am

robnl wrote:
I am married with a son

What???! !! :D



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24 Oct 2017, 4:51 am

Quote:
I was repeatedly amazed at how much success in NT-world seemed to be driven by deception - of oneself or others.

Self deception is actually a feature of the NT operating system. Not a bug.
That in social situations delusions of superiority, excessive optimism or positivity in the face of adversity, etc. are all actually NEEDED in order to counter negative signaling from competition (for status, mates, etc.).



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24 Oct 2017, 6:54 am

Esmerelda Weatherwax wrote:
:
I was repeatedly amazed at how much success in NT-world seemed to be driven by deception - of oneself or others. Still am, honestly. The biggest deception is that there are rational decisionmaking processes in business and in management. Alas. From what I've observed, it is almost all ego driven. I used to use the term "anti-learning" to describe it, it was so bad.

I used to be so intimidated by the higher ups: they seemed smart to a level I could never hope to achieve. As the years went on, I gradually realized I am smarter than all my superiors and they are just really good at pretending. For example, one person in my workplace literally spends 80% of his time watching videos or goofing off. He hires contractors to do his work and it has been going on so long all the higher ups just assume that is how his job is supposed to be. There is nothing more frustrating than knowing you are the best candidate for a job but the person hiring is too stupid to see that.

I spent 4 years in University learning about how business is only based on rational decision making but it didn't take long to learn what a lie that is.